I have been coming to this site for about a week now, and as many of you have seen, I have been asking quite a few questions to understand the gaming mechanics.

While I don't feel it my place to give advice to other new players like myself, I wanted to add this comment. I had the pleasure of speaking with LOD and savetuba. And they answered a good amount of my questions. But more importantly I was able to play them in a couple of Novice Battle games.

In my first 2500 point duel against LOD, it was almost a comedy of errors, as I have never used any of the higher units until then <because beginner games don't last long enough>. Not knowing the general layout of the map put me at a significant disadvantage. But the purpose of this was mostly to get a feel for the units and deal with tactical measures. I wasn't concerned about winning or losing... which is good because I lost badly... My plan was to put a pair of balista in some towers <I assumed the towers were already under my control, so I didn't get a Comms... hehe> And with most of my Marksmen hold the entrance between the towers.... but at the same time, to seen some HC and Falc's through the Snow and flank in behind him.

This appeared all good and according to plan as I took out some Spearmen of his he was using as expendable scouts. I started my Falc's and HC through the snow <with Defense Mode on... mistake number 1>. as my first Falc was out the edge of southern snow.. I moved it one space to close to one of his marksmen who could see it out of the cornor of it's eye.... I quickly realized that I would not be succusfully flanking him in this game. So I decided to use my other melee units <still in the snow> to rush straight at where his marksmen were placed just barely north of his towers. Imagine my surprise <read: Dismay> to find that had Mountains covering that flank... so my melee struggled to get close to anything of use and his Marksmen and Knights had a nice Falc-on-a-Stic. It was only a matter of time before before his knights finished off my ballistae and remaing marksmen.

While my tactic would have prevailed much better if I had gone the route of the swamp... I was impressed with LOD's use of Spearmen and Knights to adequatly make it near impossible to get near his marksmen. Well Played.

Shortly after he went to bed, savetupa came into the Web Chat with me, and we decided to play a Battle game. I didn't know it in the beginning but he would be using his demonic powers against me. In this 2500 point duel, I went with 2 sets of knights, 3 sets of spearmen and the rest Marksmen. Having learning from my duel with LOD, I opted to send most of my forces southwest through the swamps. And I would use one Knight and Spearmen <normal mode> as bate to try to get him to come though my tower area.

I spotted Neehts near my towers as well as in the swamp. I quickly shot them down, and I didn't believe he knew that most of my forces were over by the swamp... that was until I moved a unit of marksmen near the edge of the map, only to behold in horror a Demi-God. Having only perused over the Demonic units once, the only thing I knew was that it was the Demon's toughest creature, I failed to remember that they could fly... <big mistake> savetuba wasn't kidding when he told me the Demi-god would take out half my army. Next thing I know he the Demi-god flys in the middle of my Marksmen, and eats a snack, while the rest of my Marksmen flee while they can.

It took most of my focus fireing from my Marksmen to finally whittle down the demi-god unit. When next thing I know, I have some Demon-Lords coming up though my two towers. 1 of my 2 sets of knights is able to do some damage, but he takes a beating in the process. My spearmen were order to try to surround a Marksmen unit only for me to find out that you can attack diagnornally if it is north to south.... you just can't do it east to west <not sure why that is, should be consistent both ways I think>.

As he hunted down my Marksmen, I sent my Spearmen south midway into the swamp to deal with some Boulder Demons. with 1 Marksmen unit down to 2 people and another being protected by my knights at 7 people. I decided to have that unit of 7 forget about the demi-god and do some damage to the Boulder Demons. I believe it was one of the reason I would win this closely fought duel, as I nearly killed the entire unit that my spearmen could finish it off.

My two Knight units were dealing with the Demon Lord and took time out to finish off a Rhonk Giant. With the Demi-God whittled down to 1, and both my knights able to chase down a fleeing Demon Lord, the duel was mine. But more importantly, savetuna gave me a good lesson on what happens when I foget his baddies can fly, but also about protecting your range units.

Couple of other key things I learned. <this is all known by Vetern players i'm sure>, since you CAN block your own units, make sure you move the ones that you need to first. Against LOD I blocked my own Falc's with some Squires of mine by mistake. It is vital that you determine what is the greatest threat, and this may change throughout a battle. against savetuna for most of the duel the Demi-god was the most fearsome unit, but once it had been weakened enough, I believed important to take out some other stacks, while making it difficult for his Demi-god to attack my weaker stacks like Spearmen.

Pay attention to how the terrain affects movement, and if your trying to flank someone, you probably want to leave the Defense mode off until you get into position. I am officialy 3-1 in Battles, as I played two other new players and simply crushed them. I believe any new player should take advantage of the Battle format to get understanding of each units power with out worrying about resources and such. In the strategy games that I have played over the years, superior tactics will lead you to victory when it appears you have no chance. I suggest the turnbased battles because you can quickly spring through them and evaluate what happened, and if you play some veterens like I did, they can help you determine your strengths and weakensses for the duel.

Hope that helps and I look forward to dueling more vets in battle, because win or lose, I learn more

Last Edited : Sunday, 12 January 2003 - 05:57

Very informative reading Cro,although i'm wondering who this savetuna character could be...
The whole 'move/attack northsouth but not eastwest' thing is probably the most crucial lesson.If you move the cursor horizontally across the screen you'll see that there is NO connection between these squares so such a move is always at least 2mp.Just like on a chessboard,you can't have all the squares touching,it's one colour or the other.
Therefore it is a good tactic to get your troops either SW or NE from your enemy.

I say who is this savetuna? or the savetupe? I am probally the only one who has exeremented with demonics the most and FINALLY I have a grouping that will win over almost any mid stacks...

I will report on the esence/strats of the battle games of a Dem vs Dem and Dem vs Mids.

When playing as a mid player there are several units that are a must;
1 commandeer(gives a bonus to units around it and can take the towers)
1-2 ballista(the only unit that can see 9 tiles and can keep the demigods back)
2-3 Marksmen(exelent dammage to any unit)

Opptional units include a catapult for distroying the towers.(I'll explain later)

The rest should be a 20/80 split between calvery(20) and footmen(80)
The calvery are great scouts and units for flanking. They are also a powerful unit.
Footmen range from the spearsmen to the knights. Most are used as blocking units and don't really have much use other that to block the enemy's advances.

sorry but ballista can only see 8 sqs just like all units. there can just hit 9 squares. forts can see up to 14 squares with the right techs.

If you want rid of buildings, there are two approaches -

1) If it's in your area, take the sucker over and pull it down.
2) If it isn't and your opponent's putting ranged troops in it (towers) then a catapult is no use anyway (range 7). Tempting him out or a massive sudden rush are the only reasoable approaches.

At no point is the catapult used :-)

However, I will give a little secret here...not only has Req not put any bonuses on dem units, he also hasn't put penalty on the catapult equivalent, the boulder demons :-)

Granted boulder demons aren't anywhere near as powerful as catapults or practical as the main medi ranged troops, it still something useful to keep in mind. Especially if your auto game involves demons....

lol taken from my waronliner post eh CTD? Yes a bolder demon is a great thing to use for hitting those pesky little throw away units.

did you know that knights can easilly be killed by the stone throwers? in fact, the only demonic ranged troop is exactly what a person would want to use against the "living sheild" strat. boulders can kill 10 spears/swords easy. They only have a range of 7 making marks and bals be able to kill them, but they would be focused on the demis that are ripping up your ranged.
ballista dammage to boulders= 3 boulders killed, 2 ballista lost
Marks dammage to boulders= 6 boulders killed, 2 Marks lost.

Will continue later...
Continued:

so about 3-5 boulder stacks and 2-3 demis will be able to rip right threw the "living wall"

and apon further playing I found that Wyngerns do a fairly nice amount of damage to Falcs.

In a 100 vs 100 sim the score is as followed;
Wyngerns killed 31 falcs +/-5%
Falcs killed 21 Wyngerns +/-5%
(possible error of 5%)

and fighting the 100 stacks till one died completely was as following;
Round 1
Wyngerns killed 30 falcs +/-5%
Falcs killed 30 Wyngerns +/-5%

Round 2
Wyngerns killed 27 falcs +/-6%
Falcs killed 10 Wyngerns +/-6%

Round 3
Wyngerns killed 21 falcs +/-7%
Falcs killed 9 Wyngerns +/-7%

Round 4
Wyngerns killed 17 falcs +/-8%
Falcs killed 4 Wyngerns +/-8%

Round 5
Wyngerns killed 5 falcs +/-9%
Falcs killed 1 Wyngerns +/-9%

thus the falcs died on turn 5 leaving 46 Wyngerns with 1850 expereince = lvl 9

Last Edited : Monday, 27 January 2003 - 12:17

now we all know that in any battle game having more than 2 demigods is a waist of points because you can't deploy a variaty of troops and the other player's marksmen will only have to focus on the demigods in order to win.

And nobody ever uses falcs because they can use hvys for a little more and have twice the power.

and those boulder demons can be a great help when bashing the advanced units or beginner units. But they are slow moving and the BP drains very quickly.

so what is the cost effective demonic seet up that may win against a mid player?

how about using demonlords? They are about 1/2 the expence of a demigod. they are about as tough as a low lvl hvy or a high lvl maceman. they can move around faster than most non-fliers.

So in a 5000 point game a person could buy 3 demigods and only have enough points for mabey a neeth. but where would that get the player? the other obviously has at least 50-60 marksmen and it takes only 40 marks men to down 1 stack of demigods. And if the mid player is using a tight formation you many not kill many marksmen to help you win the game.

If a player was to take those points and make only 1 demigod stack with 2-3 demon lord stacks, a neeth unit for scouting, and 3-5 boulder demons for some ranged help. They not only could possibly win but they could also lay a trap for the unsuspecting player.
---------------------------------------
Now the 4 things ALL mid players have are;
1) Comm unit(s)
2) Ranged units
3) scouting units
4) throw away units

Being a demonic player you must look at how to defend against this and how to turn the player's defences against him/her.

1st as a demonic player is to take out the comm unit! That comm nit isn't the greatst unit in the game, but for a demonic player it is the worst. A comm can take over those towers alowing for a marksman or a balista unit to occupy the tower and get a +3 range bonus tat can kill even the demigod before it is close to killing anything. A comm unit also gives a attack and defencive bonus to all units around it. so not only are those marksmen able to shoot farther, but they also can do more damage to you too.
Another thing about the comm unit is the ability to take ANY tower. those towers that are next to your castle become your worst enemy because now he/she can shoot right into your own castle!

2nd, those marksmen, balistas, and crossbowmen are very annoying for any demonic player because they can kill almost anywhere from the entire stack to 1/8th of the stack.

word count reached...

Actually, as you (didn't) know, I never signed up on the Waronliner forums due to the time it would take

I found this out while playing the only demon v demon auto-2 game :-)

To win over any mid player, one must attack these pesky units as soon as you can. If you attack his/her macemen while allowing for those marksmen to target your units you could lose 1/2 of your army in 1 turn.

Now most players like to hold their units in a tight formation preventing your fliers from swooping in and distroying any chance they had. If you must, attack the formation so that you can bring those fliers into the midle of his/her formation to kill those ranged units.

3rd are those scouting units. Always looking for the gap in your forces, or where your last strong hold is, or what you are playing as so he/she knows if a tight formation is needed or not.
Killing this unit is something left to be done only when the need arises. If that scout is about to find your hidden lord/boulder mix then go ahead and kill it. if it can't be or won't be anywhere near your army, ignore it.
The best way to get rid of a scout is to attack it when it is in a bad terrain. A swamp or snow is always preferable to kill it in because it can't turn around and out run you.

And finally those throw away units. Is your opponent going to use a living wall? a charge of hvys and knights? a defencive of sqires and pikes/maces?
As a demonic player you can tell what the player plans on doing just by the kind of throw away units he/she has.

A living wall is usually stacks of spearsmen or swordsmen totaling to about 100-200. they are held in tight formation around the ranged units. usually around a tower or terrain that covers 3 sides. There can also be some knights or macemen units to help slow down you advances and alow extra time for the marksmen/other ranged to kill more of your units. To win against this tactic you must study his/her set up and look for the 1 spot that is the weakest(IE; 1 row of spears men protecting the ranged) and focus your entire attack there. If it is at all possible, avoid charging this tactic blindly(sugarlo)

A charge is usually a mid player who was hoping on fighting another mid player. that player would then have totaled out the entire army aroung a heavy attack baises. heavy calv, knights, maces, and marksmen would be the majority of his/her forces. Again to beat this set up you would have the lords focusing on knights and macemen, the demigods on the ranged, and the boulder demons the knights. This is one of those who wouldn't have his/her units in tight formation untill he/she knows your a demonic player. So the oppertunity for ambushing the ranged units is always something to think about.

A defence is very similar to a living wall execpt that the player chooses units that will hold there own in defence mode. a layer of pikes followed by squires is usually the formation that surrounds the ranged units. To beat this you must deploy your boulder demons to kill a hole in the pike layer. Move the lords into that hole and make way for your fliers. Land the fliers into the hole made and distroy as much of his/her ranged as possible.

And remember, If it is at all possible, never atack the mid player if he/she has a well defended postion. sit your fliers on the outer most of his/her vision and let them come to you.

dam it ctd, it would have looked good if you didn't post in the middle of it...oh well

But you're challenging my long post records ;-)....

Well - I'll give it a proper read later on, when I've had some rest. You can see I've already skimmed it, but it needs further study to do it more justice....

now how to make a chart using this data...

Mid troop type and the demonic unit best suited to beat it.

Spearmen- Nnargles, Cjaar Demons, Shaevars
Swordsmen- Baow Demons, Quonos Demons, Orphaths
Archers- any, but neeth
Commandeers- any
Scouts- Squinch, Preatacs, Wyngerns
Arbelestiers- Boulder demons,
Pikemen- Cjaar Demons, Shaevars
Battering-
Squires-
Ballista-
Falchioniers- Wyngerns
Macemen-
Marksmen-
Catapults-
Knights-
Heavy Cavalry- Demon Lords

I will continue to up date this as time allows...

Last Edited : Wednesday, 29 January 2003 - 14:54

Heavy cavalry = Demon Lords.

Demon Lords = rock, H. Cav = Scissors. Combat = hurts

yes CDT, I am listing the units by paper, rock, sissors. But there are the flying units that are the unit in question. I am adding in those unitsas well.

No I mean you should add Demon Lords as the unit to kill Heavy Cav :-)

"Mid troop type and the demonic unit best suited to beat it.". And this is one :-) As you don't have an entry for H. Cav yet....