The other stacks do make a -tiny- bit of difference
(Ok, they more or less set the whole scene )

Having said that, I suspect he'd just about won the game (if not completely) by the time he got the mega-stacks... (I mean, they had to be packing thousands of EXP apiece... )

In that game there's a player we (steve, me, pain) let go as we battled amongst ourselves. He controled about half the map and hadn't faced any real competition since game turn 40. Well now its turn 103 and he has something like 350+ hc and similar number of knights, marks and assorted other units. Not to mention the fact that he has walls and towers all over the map that block access to his base .

The only problem is that he has (comparitively) very little experience and not enough time to even think about closing the gap. If it were an LMS I'd be saying HE had won the game, because unless he has no tactical skills at all we just can't win against those overwhelming numbers and positions in our weakened states. Fortunately we won't have to, and if I can scrounge together a few thousand points in the next turns he might just end up in third place (he's level 1:1 though so he probably doesn't care). While building up points may work for games like this, you can't rely on that to get you through an elimination tornement with a player who's sat on the sidelines and built up their forces.

A subject related question: Are the points you get for killing troops in any way effected by the troops level- ie. are 20 lev1 swords worth the same points as 20 lev80 swords? If they aren't, and you can feild high lev militia against macemen and knights (and win doing it) you could really build a point lead. Your mil/spear/scout units would be almost as effective as his HC/knight/mace but the points for kills ratio would be very heavily in your favor.

Possibly, according to the manual
There does seem to be some kind of score difference through level

It says-
Each troop type has an EXP rating. This is how much EXP you get for killing 1 of them.
See the Characters pages for troops EXP ratings.
The lower level army also get +2% extra EXP per level difference.

I did some fooling around with the combat sim- 200 level 30 swords against 40 level 1 knights (not too far fetched). The results, factoring in the exp bonus, were strongly in the swords favor- one time over 100 point exp difference, the other about 20 points. This is a fairly limmited example which doesn't factor in higher level troops or an RPS bonus, but I think even with the exp bonus the strat still shows some promise. If anyone has some time to kill they might want to fool around with it to get an idea of exactly how viable it is- I'll see what I can do, but I can't sit at the sim all day crunching numbers

So I guess the question is to avoid making high-level, master-level stacks because those are the ones that will REALLY pay your opponent
(how does 100 exp per heavy cav sound? )
Sure, it's hard as nails on the field...until it's shot
And then it'll penalise you as much as it may have helped

On the other hand, the skill bonus might REALLY come into it's own in a skirmish game, with no max damage to hold down the massive gain to be had....

I guess there's only one thing to say for high-level troops. GAMBLE. BIG GAMBLE
And you know me, I don't like risking a stake unless I'm fairly sure of getting paid back...
I deeply suspect that the reason why I never win games outright is because I don't take the extra risks early on, the ones that could similarly make you last if they go wrong

I wouldn't scoff high level master troops so easily, because in some cases there special abilities and hp per unit make them more viable then basics in the same situation. The problem is the insane cost of reinforcing these units, so the only economicly feasable way to make them would be to start with a grotesquely large (for regular games anyway) army of 100-200 masters and let them build exp. By the time you reached a high level you may have less then half your troops left, but they will still be a major threat. Its funny you should mention HC, because I would think they'd be one of the better high level units. With a high def and hp it would be very difficult to actually kill a unit, no matter how much exp that single unit might be worth. In addition (and correct me if I'm wrong here) HC have 1/2 chance of doing max damage regardless of the damage limit- ie you could be doing several thousand points of damage with an attack. True it's a bit of a gamble as to wether or not this will happen, but with high def and hp your troops aren't going anyware (and it can happen on retal attacks as well). Macemen are the other troop I think would do very well at high levels- send them into a pile of mele units (anything except knights), put them in def (if they can benefit), and let the enemy thorw their units at you. Knights would benefit the least at high levels so I won't worry about them, and it's already a consensus that high level marks kick a**.

You may rightly point out the dangers of massed range, HC being surrounded and massive knight attacks against maces- but all these are tactical issues, not strategic ones. When Lt lost his vets to me (not the swords) he did so in one battle- he charged my large force of HC, pikes, marks, balista and cats with the vets I mentioned (the HC, sqires ect.) and a few supporting units. But he did so at different time intervals, alowing me to focus everything on eliminating one vet at a time (the support units were mostly behind the vets). My pikes, HC and ranged did a number on his vet HC- but remember he allowed me to throw everything I had at them with impunity (and even with everything I had it took me multiple turns to take out about 40 lev 40+ HC. Next came his vet squires (about 130 level 30+ units), agian I just rushed him with everything I had and took them out with major help from the HC I still had left. My HC didn't survive his 90 lev 20+ pikes, but I managed to take them out. By this time the majority of his supporting units finally made it- but I still had most of my ranged and there was nothing left for them to support. It was after this that he demolished the castle I was after and withdrew to wait out the game with his 40k point lead.

I think something like this (CTD) is your major hang up about master vets, but it was more poor tactical decisions then my skill that lead to the vets downfall. Even good players can make tactical errors (who's troops to you think those vets got their starts on), but major ones (like that) are hard to miss if you are a sufficiently experienced player with some grasp on what your doing. There are numerous strats where these units can be employed to devestating effect (I don't want to give too many away, I still have games to play against these readers), but all it really takes to find them is some creative thought and perhaps a little inspiration.
Or very, very long hours on the combat sim

The other problem is that it's almost impossible to get a REALLY high ranked stack in a high-level game. In truth, I don't doubt they have their benefits - but they're just not enough benefits and too much of a gamble to be a serious part in any long term strategy. Anyone with lots of high level troops, in my opinion, has already caused enough carnage to win

True, but I'm not talking about level 80+ militia here- that is largely the other players falt for not taking them out early. Like with my lev 30 militia example, it dosn't take alot of levels to make a large difference in effectiveness. I agree about the long term strategy though- I generally don't get vets above 20 myself, and even then only through circumstance. But if you make an effort to put your units into situations where they can reach higher levels, and do so early on, you could by the endgame have a dozen lev 20+ units. It doesn't nessessarily have to involve much risk, just being aware and making an effort to keep as many unit staks alive as possible. Now again, how effective those units are depends on how you use them and how your opponent plays- but there are players out there who don't use ranged (though maby not at your level), and in pure mele combat they have a decided advantage. With units like HC who can already deal out major damage, you may not even have to think about getting them to lev 20- and since maces are cheep to begin with you can build up a good size army to reach a good level (as long as you don't let them get pincushioned).

If your playing a really good opponent who employs ranged units then yes, it is very hard to get and keep vets. Wether you can, or want to, work around that defficiency depends on your skills and playing style- but doing so is not without merit. I'm not saying pour 14k into shoring up one unit of swords, just being more aware of vet posiblilities and saving a few units may put you in a stronger position in the endgame.

True, if an opponent has made easy experience off early kills he will have lots of vets and a score to match. I probably don't pay enough attention to the score (why I like LMS), but if you allow someone to build up that much of a point lead it is very hard to overcome that (even if you can beat them in battle). Its what happened with Lt and I in the game previously mentioned, but I'm also playing an LMS with him. He got points off an early kill, and still has quite a lead, but I'm fending him off with nothing but time on my hands and archers at my back (he's not a fan of ranged). So he can keep his point lead, but if things go well it won't do him much good at the top of the eliminated players.

I know CTD and I kind of hijacked this post, but if anyone else has something to contribute please do so.

No-one else has said anything, so what the heck...

Anyway, it's a nice side-strategy - but like bashing the monsters with melee units, it's not a game clincher. Just something to make use of when it happens, and once in a while it'll bail you out

:-) Yeah, I had left them out hanging, with the turns that were left, I built up some defenses, and was pulling everyone back to set and relax till endgame... I had missed the half turn, and they was toast when I came back...

As far as the LMS goes, I am not done till I am dead...

Three of us left, and both allied against me.

This game rocks.

LT. PAIN

Oh I know your nowhere near dead, and when I saw that you scrapped your castle game 58 fortifications flashed back in my mind.

If you have to make a stand thats probably the best place to do it, lots of good choke points with few entrances. The main problem is that in game 58 I have your castle, so I have instant recon whenever I want it (a nice perk of all the maps being the same).

CTD, finally something we agree on.

Last Edited : Monday, 23 June 2003 - 23:52

I never said that such troops were a worthless frill to the game and never any good, just merely that you can't rely on it to be a consistent and useful strategy game-in game-out

And I wholeheartedly agree, it just took us a while to get there.