Ok let me put my two cents in about battle games. ) Well its been awhile for me but im sure some people will remember me nagging req about battle games. I wanted them to be ranked because of lack of players. Also to take out towers not enough strat to it. All that was just to say I have a loud mouth lol. Ive posted my strats plenty of times. It use to be a person would use marks and spears. So i tried marks and archers. same strat more attacks. You could take away retals with archers against other similar srats. Now adays its the HC formations. My favorite is a 4k game with 4 hc 3 marks and 2 commanders 2 spears equals an even 4k if i got it right. Well I was very successful and loved playing it. Its hard to beat people all the time. But after pimp beat me bad in a 5k game with, will say a anti hc formation, its back to the drawing board for me. But what i think the main problem is that if you take all these equally skilled players there really isnt that much strat that goes into it. This may be to much chit chat but maby theres enough start in it to help

One last tip Knights suck in battle games. I never use them myself.

Well...if they're safe from HC and you can get them into as many combats as possible...

But then, it is why we have throw-aways

George, Lonestorm... WHERE WHERE YOU 3 MONTHS AGO

Lone's set up brings up the reason I think HC can stifle strategic playing- you only have 11 units in a 4k set up, and 4 of them are virtual throw-away units. You're forced to use your units as one big block, which while powerful, limmits the tactics you can employ. And as you mentioned, when you put so many of your points into one unit type you leave yourself vulnerable to counter strats.

Lone's set up, or a variation on it, is the hardest set up I have delt with thus far. It requires alot of precise strategic play to win against, and even then the battles are almost always VERY close. But I refuse to play an anti-HC strat for the same reason I don't play an HC one: one trick ponys won't get you far against a skilled player or counter strat. By keeping my strategic options open I can adjust to meet any player set up, not just a few. Sure, I may have to work much harder then an HC player to win a game: but for me that is enjoyable, and a lot more rewarding then sledgehammering opponents into submission.

And as Lonestorm proves, even the higer level players can experiment with new set ups.

However, like I said, these new 6k games may make HC a viable option (in resonable quantity). I have yet to crunch the numbers though.

That doesn't alter the possibility the one powerful strategy in each category may continually defeat the well-rounded player assuming both are capable and carrying out their strat in the best possible way

(Edit - fixed lousy English )

Last Edited : Tuesday, 21 October 2003 - 08:11

It would all basically, as in real life, come down to a matter of economic. If you can afford the HC, AND your only objective IS to ride out and slaughter, it does leave you open for developments in other peoples playing. Like the HC were developed to counter a knight, so players are going to develope a counter for HC. Huge masses of 'rock' troops being the basis.

Last Edited : Thursday, 23 October 2003 - 01:06

Well I still dont bother with Knights they die to easy but ive never tried taking on a macemen and marks formation with knights but i think they would get slaughterd. for one marks eat them up ) but moving on the sad truth is, like ctdxxx said, well rounded formations just get you beat. I could use either the hc mark formation or the mace mark formation and it wouldnt even be close if you used several troop types. Im not sure how to fix it maby with limits of the numbers you can have of one type of troop but that would still in the long run leave you the same formations over and over. Im with some of the other guys new maps i think would help a lot. and dont even get me started about demonics lol what a head ahce

I'll ignore the pun CTD left me with on that last post, but I can't promies I'll be able to hold it in forever

The powerful caegory strat, when commanded by an experienced player, is in most cases an easy win against all but their counter strat (which depends on the power set up you employ). Against all but this strat players are able to use their units in the same way over and over agian and get the same (usually positive) results. It is an easy way to play and win if you know what you are doing, involiving no risky tactics or open questions on how the game will be played (ie you know exactly how you will use your troops and have done so many times before).

Though I never said it was easy, I have to disagree with your assertion that a well-rounded player will loose to a "powerful category" strat when both are played to their fullest. The point is that while you can only use your troops one way, I can employ my set up in any number of ways to counter the tactics you are using. If I do this to the best of my ability you will always loose because I know exactly what you are able to do and can counter it. However, actually doing that requires a mastery of tactics and nuances of the battle games that I do not possess, but come closer to with every battle.

The set up's strength directly hinges on my ability to employ it, and while your "power set up" will eventually reach the limits of what it can do mine is able to expand as I do to meet nearly any challenge ( their is almost no grouping of troops that cannot be overcome with practice and experience: though some are obviously much harder to beat then others). I doubt there will ever be a moment when I must scrap my set up like Lone did in the face of an insurmountable counterstrat- but the only way I gain that ability is by not relying on the strength of my units so much as how well they are employed.

I can't promise you I can win every time, but I can promise you that I could have won every time (I never have to play a game I know I will lose because I have the wrong troops for this players set up): and practice and experience are improving my consistancy. Like I said, I have beaten those "power strats" when played by high-level players on several occasions.

(just to make it clear, all of this involves battle games only- I can't speak for HC otherwise)

I don't think forced diversification is the answer, if people want to use 8 HC in a 6 k game they can go ahead and get creamed by 24 macemen.

And do go into your thoughts on Demonics, I can stand the headache

****e, you make the demon class sound dull and boring like economics...

Demonics are not dull. But to have the almost unbeatable formation you have to have way to many troops in the high points games. and blood your right about not being able to adapt with the hc formation to an point. Against the macemen mark formation I had to waste several turns trying to split his mace front up with flanking it worked i got a few mark kills but in the end I still think a full rush may have been better. You keep talking like you do and I may have to drop some points and try all the trrops in a battle lol. btw 6k is still ruled by the hc and mark formation lol. I tried 3 hc 9 marks and 4 mace and got creamed of course this was by boe so nt such a big loss

I usually combine mace and HC and marks, but then I run into demonics who use a lot of rock-troops, and then I'm screwed. But with a pure mace-mark strat, I'm still screwed against demonics.

But if I take knights instead, then I run into medieval, or demonics with a lot of ranged. In all cases I and my knights get pulped.

I havent done any battles for a while now

Egregius' problem is easily solved, just be clear upfront what race each of you will be playing. I certainly would want to adjust my strat against demonic, if you don't then you'll be stuck with a bunch of rocks you don't need and cavalry who get creamed by demon lords.

Yes, I didn't quite mean that you could only play it one way- but that with so few units you can't aford to spread them out and mainly have to use them as one (maby 2) groups.

Mace may be the counter to HC, but as units go they aren't even close in terms of power. Its often best to just rip through them quickly with your marks and HC rather then trying to finness it while their ranged units constantly hit you.

Don't be afraid to join the other side, deep down you know I'm right. Seriously, if you enjoy your playing style then use it- but don't think that you have to be traped into using HC and other heavies. I was bored and just put in a bs set up for a battle game (I was actually mad at myself for doing it because I was sure I would loose), but when I realized that it actually worked I was a changed man. Don't settle for medeocrity just because everyone else is doing it.

And I'm sorry to hear that HC has defiled the innocence of our new 6k games, sorry but not surprised. When I get the time, and finalize my set up, I'll have to see for myself.

BTW what did you mean by this...

"Demonics are not dull. But to have the almost unbeatable formation you have to have way to many troops in the high points games."

well im sure most people know this formation anyways or one similar so ill tell. Lots of boulder throwers(these guys are tough) lots of neeths excellant blockers and retal takers vs other ranged and some will have one demi god or more boulders if i rember right 2 or 3 boulders can kill 1 demi might even be less in a high point games your talking about 30 plus units on the map

Which once again brings up the battle timer bug issue

I hear the battle timer is down, can anyone confirm this?

And what about those 6k games, how are they playing out for everyone?

Well you people are forgeting a little bit of information.to start off the heavy calvery are at the long end of a ladder in the troops.....unless you want to be very unbalanced in a fight you wont go off and getting them first, of course that does happen.You can almost always be sure that if its not even turn 40 and you see a pretty decent HC armie near you chances are that the person who is controlling them doesnt have much else to attack with.....so they are playing more on the "ill scare you into becoming my ally so you can protect me card then i can backstab you w/ the rest of the newbies type of thing".oh dam!! i gotta go ill see you later.....ill try to get back.

were talking about battle games but yes if in a campaign youd be right