mmm... req, link to your map that you showed me in irc... I think you'll be convinced TR, that the terrain can still be artistic and beautiful and look random. I saw the one with the water, there weren't any trees or mountains put in yet. However, it looked like a map we would use now, except that the land CONTROL is done with zones.

There could very well be maps where some zones take a while to access due to trees being all around the edges, and maze-like entry point at some other area. Infact, the zone system seems to me to be the best way to add new strategy and KEEP this random terrain feel you like, TR.

Sure the castle placement is symetrical, but it is that way right now as well, there just isn't anything to control between castles besides resource buildings. Those are pretty symetrical in feel as well if you own multiple resourse buildings. If anything, this will give it a MORE random feel, because you could build resourse buildings anywhere in the zone [am I right about this Req?] So it will have even less of a symetrical feel to it. People will be building their resource buildings in strategic places, rather than not having any control of where they are like it is now.

To some extend I actually agree with the landlocked resource idea: You can't really build a successful timber mill in the desert. I think to add to the strategy, it might be good to limit resourse buildings to within x # of hexes of an anchored point on the map, so that Req can have some control in developing strategy based maps. [For example, you can build a lumber mill within 3 hex's of trees... or maybe it would need to be a special flagged tree, if req. wanted to use the forest graphic as the perminant wall that they now are. mountains for mines, etc... ]

Refining could be a zone level upgrade: you reaserch refining in a zone bordering a zone that has a resource, and another 10% of what the resource building is producing is now generated.... this could be something that could be done also to zones that border zones that have refining in them already... so you could "refine" all your zones for a price once you got a single timber mill [ yes, if you had 10 zones, you'd be making 200%, but it would cost a goodly amount of gold and stuff to stimulate your economy to that point, and you wouldnt need it all right away, so it would represent a growing kingdom slowly needing more and more wood] However, those zones would all stop producing any timber if the zone with the mill were to be taken over

one thing about this is that I still feel that zone level upgrades, if used, would work better not as "this zone is a military zone, it cant be economic now" but instead as something where each upgrade to the zone costs more and more... so you could have a zone where your refining all of the resourses, but at that point, it would probably be too expencive to do a defence upgrade.

you could think of zones as townships or small villages around the hub, your castle. it costs you money to develope your small villages, the bigger you want them to be, the more you have to invest in them... but also the more they are giving back to you. that is why I think upgrades should be more expencive per one in zones, but shouldnt have a cap, except for the cap being: all of the upgrades. which would be REALLY expencive, but the benafits of that one zone would then be like having a city next door to your castle... it really wouldnt be too benafitial to build up very much except in areas that the enemy will never have access to, and in areas where you need to build defence because they are strategicly important.

another point was that upgrades could be dropped if no-longer needed... i feel that that would make the game SO much fun.
actually, a whole new technology branch could be added to the system, called "Kingdom polotics" {maybe a building would be built for this called a "court house" to unlock them)

Last Edited : Thursday, 22 July 2004 - 04:15

The reason for this would be two fold.

[I keep building on these ideas because I like them and see how they could work...]

Firstly, because when you fight, naturally economic structure is destroyed. I would suggest that two random zone upgrades be lost every time a zone is taken, or a random number of zones be lost between 1 and 3... or it could depend on the troop type and how many there are compared to how developed the zone is... Like, with normal troops it is lose 2, or 1-3 randomly, but with coms in the zone when you take over, and no politics techs, you could loose maybe only 1 tech and you'd get a 50% chance of picking which one you lost.

The tech: basic politics would reduce the number of upgrade loses to 1 for normal troops, and you'd get a 50% chance of picking which upgrade you would lose. and it would eliminate upgrade loses completly if coms were used.

The tech: advanced politics would eliminate loses for any takeover.

The tech: expert politics would alow you to Delete upgrades you no longer need [because a zone with fewer upgrades is cheaper to upgrade, remember? and you my not need some of your defencive upgrades after you secure an area, so you might want to make economic upgrades cheaper to buy at that certain zone]

The tech: master politics? would give 1/2 money back for un-needed upgrades you delete.

a way to limit growth in this system slightly [besides making things expencive to the right amount] would be perhaps to make politics technology only work if there is a courthouse a cetain number of zones away:
for a player at basic politics level courthouse has the efect of :
making basic politics techs work for zones touching the zone it is in.
for the advanced politics tech, courthouse has the effect of:
making basic politics work for zones 2 zones away, and advanced politics techs work for zones touching.
for expert politics tech, courthouse has the effect of:
making basic work 3, advanced work 2, and expert work 1 zone away.
you get get how master would work, right?

something I just thought of when I re-read my first post tonight:

you could also make a technology system to limit imedate refinery gains, req... much like the politics system... it could be zone touching zone based, you have to spend money on expencive techs to refine at a farther out level of zones from your resource... This could be one large lump tech [ a hump to get over for stimulating the economy] or, for a more smooth economy, you could make it something to research for each resource individually.
first, a basic tech to make refinery posible, then intermediate techs to widen the range of refinery, finally, a really expensive tech at the top that takes the range limit completly off for refinery [ok, maybe that is too much ]

for the love of the new system, I bumpeth thee!

Well actually I used the wrong "descriptive word". I really should have used the word "integrated" or "natural" instead of "random" or maybe "randomly integrated" or maybe even "naturally randomly integrated".

In any event the "new zone system" in combination with a "randomly generated map" especially with room for as many as 100 players I think is going to be a "super sensational WOL game experience" and I look forward to them.

TR

kinda sounds like the total war games, the campaign map, in total war, is divided up into segments, which brings in they're seperate income, has its own techs, ect.

I love the idea Req! dang. now when you implement these, I will be faced with the descision to either quit school or quit work. hmmm. that's a tough one. Keep those kind of ideas coming!

well, since its been raised again, i'll update with my current thoughts...

waronline.net/zones.asp

As can be seen, maps will be randomly generated (altho support for statically built maps will still be supported, especially for 1v1 or clan games).

Each Castle has the 6 local Zones, but only players that are near other players have the Outer Zones. Thats why players on the edge of the map dont have as many Zones.

Since you gain GOLD for every Zone you own, it was also an idea to make certain Zones worth more. Local Zones are worth 100%, Outer Zones that overlapped with 2 players worth 150%, and the few Outer Zones that overlapped with 3 players worth 200%. Castle Zones would probably be worth 400%.

This idea would be encourage players to venture outside their 6 Local Zones, and try to hold them for the extra Gold.

Keep in mind, this is the ONLY way to get Gold. There will be no Gold Mines, nor do you get Gold from the Castles. You get Gold from the Zones (including your Castle Zone).

...

as for the Zones themselves, i have been looking at a very simple system.

More of an Upgrade system, you dont actually build anything.
You simply click anywhere inside the Zone, and you get a UPGRADE ZONE button. From there you can upgrade the Zone in a number of ways.

All Zones would be empty to start (except Castle Zone).
WHen you move into an empty Zone, it becomes yours.
Once you own an empty Zone, clicking UPGRADE ZONE allows you to upgrade to a Township. (this actually places the Town building in the center of the Zone).

From there, you can upgrade the Township to a Barracks (or other military settlements), or resource communities like a Mining Colony, or Woodcutters Guild, etc...

Of course we need to come up with a good build-tree and good names to represent the growth of the community.

The idea is that each Zone represents a real province inhabited by a simple community. You can then upgrade the community to be larger and more advanced by teaching them and building associated buildings.


This system is very simple to use (even for newbies), but with a good build-tree, combined with a great tech-tree, it would bring more strategy than we have now, and make it harder to master.

As for walls/towers, they will probably remain the only buildings you actually manually build.

Either that, or they too become a Zone Upgrade, which in turn surrounds your Town Centre with walls & drawbridges. A further upgrade would give towers (either for all 6 corners or by clicking an existing wall and upgrading to tower).

Not sure on this one yet.

btw, there will be no Outposts (as we know it).
You will always see your Zones + Zones you have troops in, and the 6 surrounding Zones around those 2.

So an "Outpost" could actually be the lowest form of Township, which represents just a few peasants watching the land. Which could then be upgraded to a Township with lots more people.

Of course a Township vs a Mining Colony would represent different growth paths, and thus different strategies.

as for the walls and towers being manually built or implemented as a zone upgrade, I'm quite in favor for them being manually built. You know, just for that extra flexibility in your defensive strategies.

It all sounds awesome. I'm very much in favor of all you've just put forward. Its quite possible to make a multi-layered game while still keeping it simple, and I think you'll acheive this. Good stuff!

when's it coming Req?

Just drooling over the map, and thought that it would look cool, if once you zoomed out all the way, the lands owned by people would shade to their color, would look like old war maps once the game progressed...

Someone could take a pic every few days and watch the ebb and flow of the map over the entire game

well, since it uses Zones, the flash map would be made from seperate Zone objects. Which means each Zone object can be set to show either the terrain, or owner color.

Also, since terrains are set by Zone, I'm looking at making a dynamic image creator to generate a GIF of the Zone-Map. Which then could be shown by ownership at the end.

Obviously it would be bad to show ownership during the game as it would give away too much information.

"Req"
May I ask,
on the 100 player sample map where there are two voids shown within the map, what will be displayed where the voids are and will the map still be against some sort of background?

The reason I ask is that I think it is possible to loosely "free-form" this "zone pattern" inside one of "dby's" maps of Europe (i.e. super-impose the zones onto the map) but I say "loosely" meaning that exact details of the map of course would not be possible;
and if the background map could show through along the coasts and wherever there are voids as "inaccessible terrain", the map will still give a "real world setting".

I am not advocating an historical map but a "real world setting" I think does have a certain special appeal and I am speaking of a large map with possibly 100 or more players like has been shown possible. I understand that the people of the far east may not identify with Europe but they Are on the same land mass and there are many more western world people playing than eastern.

TR

PS:
If the "zone pattern" could be done as a "transparent overlay", that would allow terrain of a map to show through.

TR

the huge voids could represent giant lakes or mountins or something