1st Bear with me on this one, 'cause to make sense it's gonna be a long one...

... i've remembered a "weird" suggestion, and wanted to see what u all thought about it.

It wouldn't be able to be implemented into WOL, but perhaps if seen as a good enough variation on the new release (one can hope).

As we all know, the basic of the game is simplifying it a lot the Rock-Scissor-Paper Rule.
Now, in the present game, there aren't formations... all units are just groups of "soldiers" from its kind.
And, again simplifying it alot, follow the R-S-P Rule, plus some bonus attached to its type, etc...

Now i've been thinking on another thread set by Req, about action limits & faster turns. And thought about this:

Why not turn ALL units into R-S-P units, instead of being a single "kind" of unit (ex: Scouts are Scissors)?
By this i mean, imagine a Pikemen unit for example, where in a "Paper" formation would be equal to "collumn" formation and have a more limited "Attack" percentage, but would have more "Move" points, on "Scissors" would be on a "mixed" setting, and on "Rock" (it's Natural setting) on a large "Attack" setting, but with less "Move" points.
P.S. - I'm only talking about movement/attack setting, but one could include "line of sight radius" etc etc etc...

Ofcourse that depending on the unit, this would change, for example scouts natural setting would continue to be "scissors".

This would probably solve the prob that Req is talking about in the other thread + force players to rethink it's strategies... for example an heavy armoured armie in "travel" mode could sustain heavy losses by a rather light armie if ambushed (see Hannibal in Lake Trasimeno, where he destroyed a vastly superior in numbers + class army, by ambush).

It would certainly complicate more things, true enough... but imagine how much could be gained by it.
In my opinion, the game is wonderful as it is... but while there is "surprise" in the game (a large army appears out from nowhere, if one hasn't any recon or outposts) there ain't any "ambushes"... u can't ambush an army...

What do u all think of this?

I think it is very well thought out and should be considered. The mechanics would still be similar in any individual engagement, but the tactical and strategic considerations on each turn would grow tremendously. It would mirror the risks and benefits inherent in quickly moving a column of troops and slowly moving a combat formation. Well done.

One minor thing though...if you haven't seen ambushes in a campaign yet...you will. The more expert players do it quite often.
Cheers,
H.

I think the idea has merit as well and agree that engagements would be far more complicated and require an extra level of skill and experience for the new player.

IMO, though, there are no 'real' ambushes in the game. Sure if a player doesn't play wisely and have outposts or scouts on his borders, he may be surprised by an enemy moving in.

Currently, in the high level games, a player usually knows not only from what direction his next engagement is coming from and additionally, when those hostilities are going to start (due to naps and agreements between players). The only 'surprise' is in what troops and strengths that his/her enemey is using.

Sometimes in the game there are tradeoffs between speed and caution. Have you never been in a situation where you get your assault army prepared...start moving toward the enemy castle...you have previously scouted the area, but your scouts were killed...you expect a good fight, somewhat in your favor...you need to hurry before the enemy can upgrade their barracks (or build another one)...so, you put your melee troops in front and your ranged follow as you move along the roads for speed? I have seen most players to this with slight variation.

No ambush???
Suddenly as you move into the enemy territory, a huge flank attack hits your ranged troops from both sides surrounding them. As your melee try to turn back to rescue your surprised arrow slingers, they are hit by the enemies ranged troops from some hastily constucted towers on the other side of the range of hills. I consider that move a "real" ambush...and it is one reason I LOVE this game!!! It is a hard thing to set up...but oooh so fun when it works.
Cheers,
H.

True enough Hwatta, THAT's an ambush.

Now the thing is... for what you've described... or you have lots of resources at your disposal + large ammounts of troops in the barracks + enough time to build them, position them + the enemy takes his time preparing his army + after having lost ALL it's recon units is unconscious enough to advance without any recon.

That shows only that the enemy, besides taking it's time... thinks that the other guy is so beaten that he won't even put up a fight and rolls down like a mad bull before a red cape

Hwatta, i'm joking around, but though what you say is in reallity an ambush... i still consider that one can't make a "real" ambush as was said in the game due to the "static" characteristics of the units. Except if the game has some "special" characteristics... like clan fights, etc.

What Hwatta described is a rookie who doesn't understand the need to protect his flanks, may we all encounter many of the same ;-) Much like the earlier mentioned battle involving the brilliant Hannibal against the much less brilliant Flaminius.

To better facilitate ambushes I would prefer a 'hide' mode where a unit remains unspotted until it either moves, attacks or an enemy comes within say half the normal spotting range. Better yet implment LOS (line-of-sight) rules even if only for trees and hills.

Not necessarily a rookie situation. Sometimes, you just have to take a risk based on the best intelligence you have regarding your enemies position. If you hesitate, you lose.

When your enemy is taking out your 5 pop scouts with a lone archer unit, you can guess he is laying in wait with a larger force and trying to blind you, or you can guess he is completely outnumbered on that border of his realm and out of position for defense. The wrong guess is a disaster in either case. Moving slowly to protect the flanks and allowing an enemy time to bring their entire army back from the opposite front for castle defense is just as deadly in the final standings as suffering an ambush.

I have not encountered many opponents who deliberately setup this type of ambush. But, they sure are fun when they work!!!
Cheers,
H.

Hwatta,

I fully agree with the last two sentences of your first paragraph.

Beyond that I would love the opportunity to test my ideas...

I am a rookie with only two campaigns to speak of, but I have been a student of war for quite some time.

Hwatta, though i do agree with you.

It's a large gamble to try to risk a sudden move and be caught if you don't have defences ready.

One must make do, and has you say, judge things as best has one can and play the dice