I have little doubt that this act was committed by Islamic fundamentalists. The CIA is responsible for some ghastly acts, but this to me is clearly a case of "get out of our country or we retaliate" from the nutball element of Islam.

I'd like to point out also that putting periods between the letters of offensive words doesn't actually make them less offensive! Req asked me to help curtail these things since we have young players here and don't need their folks getting WOL shut down for obscenity, so please find other words to use in their place, thanks.
Your Mogerator

I told you, wont be long until they start turning this into Americas fault. A Boston Globe article. Derrick Jackson writes for the New York times, I think it is. Anyway, he says that the delibert targeting of innocient people by Al-Queda is the same as the unfortunate casualties that come with war. I'll keep my eyes open, soon they will be flat blaming the U.S. for it.

www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/07/08/a_look_in_the_mirror_for_america/

It is all so sad BA. If we in the US military were 1% as bad as the press makes us out to be in most of their reporting...this conflict would be over. Long over.

I cannot tell you how much effort we expend to avoid causing collateral damage of any type. I cannot count how many mosques we didn't blow up when we knew unlawful combatants were using the structure to hide weapons, ammunition, and supplies...how many "hospitals" that were actually enemy bases were left untouched...how many anti-aircraft batteries were spared because they were using civilian neighborhoods as shields. All these situations are considered legitimate targets because of the despicable actions of the terrorists, but we always err on the side of restraint...protecting the innocent from harm whenever possible.

We could easily have firebombed the entire Sadr village area or Falouja or all of Baghdad for that matter. The terrorists would have died alongside the innocent people they are targeting anyway. Just faster and in larger numbers (although probably not as high as the false numbers already reported by some idiots). The outcry against the US would probably be a wee bit louder than it is now...but, it would also not go on for years. It would all be over. Hmmm...one short loud yell...or years of annoying high-pitched squeeling...what a choice?!? But, we choose to do what is right regardless.

If we were actually guilty of the mindset and the ambitions that our critics presuppose, it would be truly frightening to behold. Luckily we are the ones controlling WMDs and not our enemies. Yet.

Once that situation changes, be sure to hug your family and friends and say goodbye each day. For them, there are no noncombatants.
H.

www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?channelid=80&contentid=2409


Yea, its a wacked out Boevipesish type web site, but there it is. We KNEW and did nothing.

Ok, if those behind these blasts are really "Islamic Fundamentalists", then can anyone here list what aims they have achieved by their acts?

I think Boe is right! Since our own logic (American/British/German/Swedish/etc...) can not list their aims, except our own generalised paranoia of all the is related to Arab/Muslim conflict, then we must be wrong!

I say we have been duped all these years by a collective effort of our governments, who just wanted the oil fields for themselves. Ohh and don't for get the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion' which explain and list how the Jews controlling the CIA and American banks on the one hand alongside controlling the European media and trade on the other have secretly sparked all that.

All those years and years of fighting, of terrorist attacks against civilians (which for some reason make Boe and his ilk smile now, thinking its some funny game, far away in New-Zealand) Thousands of innocents killed, not only of the enemies of Arabs' countries, but Arabs killing each other... that was all designed by master plans hatched in the Pentagon and even more secretly plotted behind it by Israeli agents.

Come to think of it, it's all Hwatta's fault. Surly with a name like that, working for the American military and expressed views which twist the truth and blind-sight us, Hwatta is one of the main perpetrators intentionally implanted in this community to confuse another group of innocents. Now, you'll have to be re-assigned Hwatta since we uncovered your flimsy plot. Ohh, and good job Hwatta on the reverse psychology issues. Well done.

Shhiiish!

Last Edited : Saturday, 9 July 2005 - 01:29

Actually Boe, you would have been rather funny, if there weren't real lives involved and thousands OF OUR OWN FAMILIES AND FRIENDS KILLED while you sit leisurely on your cushioned backside in a comfy home, feeling smug about uncovering conspiracy theories.

Yes, when people die I laugh my ass off, that's why I have been laughing non-stop since the day I was born.

Bleh. D- Rog, sit down.


Anyway, what aims have the "Islamic Fundamentalists" achieved by these London bombings? Anyone?

Last Edited : Saturday, 9 July 2005 - 01:48

No Boe. YOU sit down. You are young and never had first hand experience of A L L those things you seem to know so much about. So the conspiracy theories entertain you, and people getting riled up in the forums gives you some perverse challenge, but maybe for once, you, and not only you, but others too, should stop speculating about things you know NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING (!!!) about and only add to the hurt felt by those who did experience them.
There's a difference between arguing about football or Bush' environmental policy and between finding convoluted conspiracy theories to entertain yourself. [btw, I didn't say you laughed about people dying, but about playing a devil's advocate in these debates].

...and if you're so sharp to note the possible conspiracies by the western governments in hatching these false attacks let me enlighten you about the motives of the Islamic Fundamentalists. Islam and the Koran call to make a holy war = Jihad on all infidels. FULL STOP. A continuous, annihilation war to wipe out all Christian dogs and Jewish pigs. Check out the school curriculum at schools across the Arab world. READ the F'ing thing! There's no need for an elaborate strategic plan.

But, hurting the USA and Britain and Israel and Spain and Australia, terrorising them and killing their civilians will only get one a seat in heaven, it's part of an all out war against those NOT under the grace of Allah and which are responsible for all the atrocities of this world; vice, gluttony, immorality, etc... Read some translated preaching that are heard in so many mosques around the world EVERY Friday. Or better, go out of NZ for a while, travel and meet some people, of all types and try to meet both sides in person and on location. Go talk to Iranians in Iran, go meet with an ordinary Iraqi in Iraq or a Palestinian here in Israel. I'll organise some of the meeting for you. Listen to them and NOT the media reports or your damn right dumb conspiracy websites and then tell me 'What aims they had'.

Sit down yerself Boe. Stop rubbing teasing/sarcastic salt into the wounds of so many. It ain't entertaining the least bit.

Well first of all you assume that thier goals would make sense to you. At first glance you could come up with several goals. They upstaged the G8 and London getting the Olympics. They brought the battle home to Britain. They reaffirmed their place as deliverymen of fear and death.

Somewhere in this thread Mog says something about we lost Vietnam because we could not win the hearts of the Vietnam people. I stated that the post was basically BS and gave no further notice to it... till now. We lost Vietnam because of the home front. Because we, unlike the Vietnamese and unlike AL-Queda, are compasionate people. We are willing to spend SOME time on a war on the other side of the world, but not forever. We will eventually cave in, public opinion will eventually switch. Eventually the John Kerry's, the Ted Kennedys, The Mog's, will win. eventually if our losses get too heavy, we will vacate our war on terror.

This was discovered about us because of the Baby Boomers (people born from about 1945-1955) generation. Their parents had fought WWII, many never came home. They did not want their generation's greatest achievement being that of WAR like their father's. They prefer free sex and drugs, but that's another debate. Eventually this hippie generation got the advantage. They now lead our nation, well in the Blue States anyway.

The terrorist are banking on the fact that once again, like Vietnam, we will surrender our will to fight. Eventually we will back down and then they, unlike the Vietnamese will continue the war against us. They will take us down because we have Liberals. Liberalism and Conservatism are just titles. I'll explain the difference in a thread I will start soon. Being Liberal, just means that you are left of Center. Their Liberals are more conservative than our Conservatives. Their "Liberals" are actually Fascist, imagine what their Conservatives are like?

That is what they want Boe, they want us to quit, to say we had enough, to destroy us inside becasue we will never be able to organize a nation against them, like we did against Hitler. We wont, you know, because our Liberals are more concerned with the rights of terrorist than they are the rights of free minded, non-combatants living here in teh United States and in Britain. Lets hope that reality will prevail and within the next 2-6 years the Conservatives gain more control on the Senate and that we will prevail against evil just as our Grandfathers did 60 years ago. It is amazing how the Greates generation of Americans bred the greatest generation of cowards.

BA your reasons are all too vague. Yes the eyes of the world were on London because of the G8 and the Olympics and this gave the purpotrators a great opportunity to have these events made global news over a very short period of time. These bomb blasts are really nothing compared to the daily chaos that has been happening in Iraq for over two years now.



"Islam and the Koran call to make a holy war = Jihad on all infidels."

Not true. Islam is a religion of peace, and all real Muslims value human life.

"But, hurting the USA and Britain and Israel and Spain and Australia, terrorising them and killing their civilians will only get one a seat in heaven."

Hmmm again, any real Muslim knows that the killing of any human being guarantees a trip to hell.

So whoever did these things has minimal knowledge of the Koran or the Sunnah. And so do those who immediately tie Islam/Religion to such terrorist acts.


Anyway, that was a bit better Rog, almost warrants a C-.


So as you say the main aim of these "Islamic Fundamentalists" is to hurt western civilization at any cost and with whatever means necessary, right?

Ok sure. But why would they strike right at the time when the British ministry of defense announced that it would be pulling troops out of Iraq? Don't the "Islamic Fundamentalists" first want a victory in Iraq, so that they can conduct their operations from there? Why make such a strategic blunder and give Blair such a good reason to change his mind?

Last Edited : Saturday, 9 July 2005 - 02:49

You are wrong Boe on the reading/teachings of Koran. I grew up with them, learning what they preach. You are wrong on the the issue Islam being a benign religion, history and demographics shows otherwise. You are wrong about Jihad, again, history both ancient and VERY recent, let alone enough words by Arab leaders prove that. You are MOSTLY Wong because you judge what they do, think and believe according to your set of values (as skewed as they are). Human life counts for nothing, women count for (nearly) nothing, infidels are doomed from the day they are born. 'Moderate' Islamic preachers tone down their schooling where they can't yet voice their full agenda.

Don't grade me where you haven't even left for school Boe. Go to school by visiting places and meeting with people and then talk. Talk to these Iraqis. Who said Iraqis were responsible for the London attacks? It was a local group probably showing Britain that they have NOT managed to fight terror and bring Iraq to the fold of the 21st century of democracy and freedom. All in the name of G*d and Jihad.

BTW, why would the Palestinians disturb the pulling out of Israel out of the Gaza strip?! Why would Saudis who have the best of all worlds playing with the USA be responsible for the 911 attacks?! and many more...

Don't YOU try to explain it. You don't have the tools of understanding them and their mentality, other than reading your conspiracy sites. For once, keep quiet and learn something by getting it first hand.

Right.



So, the "local European Islamic fundamentalists" have achieved the following things with these London bombings:


-"They upstaged the G8 and London getting the Olympics. They brought the battle home to Britain. They reaffirmed their place as deliverymen of fear and death." - BA

-"Hurt Britain, terrorising them and killing their civilians, getting a seat in heaven". "Showed Britain that they have NOT managed to fight terror and bring Iraq to the fold of the 21st century of democracy and freedom"- Rog



Let me add what else these bomb blasts have achieved:
- British troop withdrawal from Iraq cancelled
- US and British public opinion swayed/reinforced towards the continuation of hostilities in Iraq
- Higher approval ratings for Bush and Blair
- Pledges of support in the "war on terror" from the other G8 members
- Very likely more legislation tightening security and eroding civil rights to follow in US&UK, possibly the institution of national ID cards, security checks at busses and train stations etc...


So how did these "Islamic Fundamentalists" benefit from these bomb blasts? Aside from a guaranteed trip to heaven that is.

Last Edited : Saturday, 9 July 2005 - 03:40

Wow! I made the same list as John Kerry and Ted Kennedy! I didn't know I was so important!!

One thing I would like to point out is that there are many disaffected people in Saudi Arabia, it is only a good place to be if you are connected to the royal families, not one of the millions whose incomes have been cut to a quarter of what they were 20 years ago.

The 9/11 hijackers were mostly Saudi, as is Osama. They want the US presence out of their holy land. They want us to stop supporting the royal family so they can take control.

Terrorism ruins economies, it doesn't have much actual effect on a nation except to harm morale and force over-reaction. This gives the terrorists more power since they are having such a big effect for what is actually a very puny force.

During the blitz in London in 1940, there were the equivalent of a 9/11 nearly every night for months. That is a real battle. Not that 9/11 wasn't awful, but it had nearly no other effect than to rally America to fight, it didn't harm even 1/100 of 1% of our country's strength.

I think we played right into Osama's hands by invading Iraq, he is laughing his butt off about it. The US has inflicted a thousand times more damage on Iraq than we have suffered ourselves. And they didn't actually attack us, whether they supported other terrorists or not.

What I hear here is that we need to be in a war forever, like Isreal. I don't think that is very good idea. There has to be another way...one that doesn't involve bankrupting this country to fight chimeras. We can NEVER get every terrorist, and the more we try, I fear, the more we create.

Please stop using my name in posts unless you are directing a comment at me or have a question!!! I am not alone in my feelings about this and I resent being singled out for your derision. Thank you.