Indeed sam if all is Gods will , why bother building hospitals? Why pay for police protection? I think we have responciability for our actions and than to blame God for all bad things that happens is just bad excuses.

Lod keep in mind that many people don't like the truth and lie to themselves constantly. It is much easier to blame god than to take responsibility for your actions.

I know a drunk who says he'll quit drinking when god gives him a sign. When I asked him about his car accident, he said that wasn't a sign to quit drinking, but a sign that god wanted him to live.

Most people who believe in god, dont believe in god because he is a good and benevolent being. They believe in god because he is the greatest excuse ever created!

Okay Mog
here it is again where you can read it for yourself (i.e. if you can understand it. ).
Sorry these are Catholic doctrines I guess handed down through the Pope, the Vatican and the Catholic Church we believe from Jesus Christ our Savior because we believe the Pope is the "Vicar of Christ" who speaks directly for Christ given that right down from Saint Peter who was the first "Vicar of Christ" who was told by Christ, "Feed my lambs. . . . Feed my sheep" (John 21:16-17),

Vicar of Christ
www.newadvent.org/cathen/15403b.htm

Here is the the view of the Catholic Church on violence and ... yes, I have defended myself physically in my life many times (i.e. thank God nothing more than a fist fight).
I didn't ever even think about "turning the other cheek" ... if I got hit, I would just start swinging.

www.newadvent.org/cathen/15446a.htm

Here is the link that I mentioned earlier where a proper authority is recognized as having the right to maintain order and yes I believe that the statutes of the Catholic Church are very much in agreement with the statutes of our democratic system:

"THE EXISTENCE OF THE RIGHT OF WAR"
www.newadvent.org/cathen/15546c.htm

I obey the authorized personnel of my community, state and country to the best of my ability.

Finally ...
Jesus was asked about paying taxes by folks who didn't want to pay them based on a doctrine from the Old Testament that stated that tribute was not to be paid to a heathen host. I can't imagine Jesus being coy but I can imagine Jesus making an ALL INCLUSIVE OVER-RIDING statement (i.e. "Render unto Caesar that which is of Caesar and unto God that which is of God") as a way of saying, "You said not to pay taxes, NOT ME";
and also as I have already said, (i.e. as a general statement that the Romans were the authorities and should be obeyed).

PS:
Last but not least Mog ...
that statement I made about the descendants of Abraham I think is more important than is realized (i.e. not to you or me or anyone else not directly involved, but I'm speaking of a sort of religious birthright
(i.e. like "this land is ours" sort of idea).

PPS:
I know you didn't want to hear the viewpoint of the Church but as I progressed, I tried to make it clear that my viewpoint is the same as that of the Catholic Church on most issues and the viewpoint of the Catholic Church is very much congruous to that of the proper authorities and civilized society.

TR

OK, I read all that legalese but it doesn't actually mention Jesus, just the state and church. It seems that to the Catholic faith, war is ok at times.

On another note, isn't the Pope supposed to be infallible, incapable of error? So how do you explain being wrong about the earth orbiting the sun? Or the recent reversal of Catholic doctrine to accept the possibility of evolution being a way God could have ordered the way of life? The Pope was wrong about the earth orbiting the Sun, certainly, but it took hundreds of years for the Catholic Church to admit this fact...

Anyway, don't many Christians have a moral voice that preaches non-violence in all circumstances? "Thou shalt not kill" is from the old testament and "Turn the other cheek" from the new testament. I guess those are conditional, somehow.

Argh, Genghis-you beat me to that post. Haha! I was kinda trying to express that opinion for quite sometime now but just couldn't seems to express it properly due to the lack of constant english usage in the lifestyle of my country.

Anyway, to add to that, I`ve been a buddhist and christian before until I finally landed on this freethinker. Attending those "classes or prayers" made me realized a lot of things apart from my past experience in life. The creation and thinking of god was merely as what genghis has stated an excuses to live on-an excuses for what happened in life-an excuses for bad things happened. I did agree it wasn't a bad thing at all since it actually gives hopes to those who believed. For me, I`m glad of the expectation of probabality of god as eventhough I`ve questioned the existence of it, I used it as a "reason" to lived on. NO! Not the way religious people "used" it. I as a non-believer tends to make a bet with the "so-called if HE did exist" I sworn to never lost to him. Sworn that no matter what suffering i endured, I`ll never lose to him. I`ll continue and still be successful. That's when i partly extend myself to challenge him, that's if he exist. If he doesn't, at least i made him to motivate myself in life. Thus to this point, I truly oppose those that tends to say "God made this so that we can be that way" and such. Sorry to say, I did indeed felt that as pathetic.

And mog, that`s the reason i never believed in any of those religions. They tend to say like for instance the buddhist that killing is okay as long as it is for your own sufficient living when they refer to eat meats. They did say it would be best not to consume any meat and be a vegetarian but they never really oppose the consuming of meats. Only those they refer as "pure" would be vegetarian. Just like the killing and consuming of animals by christians. Aren't that killing? I still believe that god was created since the living of humankind to ease the mind of human itselfs. It was used mainly by the leader of the past(when we were still behind steel age) as a diciplinary measure to control their living. Noticed the human at that time tend to be so afraid of god that they won't actually offend anything that "god" says not to do.

Mog,

After having read your posts, I am under the impression that the thread was made not to answer your question, but for you to prove that Christians are wrong and not consistent.

You are asking, how Christians can support war.

I am asking you, refering to an example: how Christians could not support fighting Hitler in WWII?

P.S. The dogma that Pope is infallible is not older than 200 years, so as you can calculate yourself, it was introduced three centuries AFTER the dispute about earth orbiting the Sun.

I didn't know that doctrine was so recent, but evolution is newer than that...

I guess I am being a bit contentious here, sorry, I am really curious how Jesus' teachings could result in someone who believes war is ok in any circumstances. Whether that is because of my insufficient learning, I don't know. Maybe I misunderstand what I've read and heard throughout my life. I expected followers of Jesus would not EVER kill another person under any circumstances.

Perhaps it is the religion that is inconsistent in asking us to love one another and also to kill one another at other times.

Personally, I think WW2 was worth the allies fighting against Hitler and Nazism. He was a clear danger to all people who want to be free. My family were all involved in that war, from the Pacific to Germany itself, women included. Since I am not Christian myself, I have no trouble reconciling myself to this, but I still think we need a better system to resolve conflicts. War is the worst thing on earth.

Another historical note: If France had enforced the Armistice agreement not to allow Hitler into the Rhineland he would have lost popular and army support in Germany. France had about ten times the strength in arms in 1936 and could easily have repulsed Hitler then. Too bad they didn't.

I think nearly anybody would have taken this course of action, to fight Hitler, but I want to know how you can be a Christian and wage war. I am being dense, I suppose, perhaps this isn't really an answerable question in many ways. Or possibly Christians should rethink their belief systems.

I'm not really trying be offensive, but if I am, I apologize. This question has nagged at me for years and I wanted to see what wol thought about it.

Hi Mog,

I sincerely apologize if I was too harsh in my recent post.

I am Catholic, and I do not think that it is the religion that is asking me to run a war. War is a human invention, and God has nothing to do with it. We believe that God gave people one precious gift: the free will. This means that God allows us to do what we want, which we unfortunately do - this is why we have wars.

I believe the right use of the free will is to help people live in peace, so that they can seek their way to God. I personally feel that the commandment of loving other people requires taking action, if someone keeps hurting other people. Drawing a gun is not the first option, but it cannot be completely excluded. We always have to make choices, but sometimes our only choice is to choose the lesser evil.

...or perhaps I do not have enough faith (yet).

So far nobody has said they are Christian and wouldn't wage war under any circumstances, so I guess it is ok with Christians, at least for this little survey.

Mog in your second to last post you say war is ok when the threat is to everyones freedom.

Then why do you have a problem with providing freedom to others who don't have it. The majority of the people in Iraq want our help. Are you saying we should have continued to leave saddam in charge so he could make more mass graves?


I don't like how bush has handled the after affects of the war. No matter what excuse they used to do it whether it was for weapons of mass destruction or just to get the oil, it doesn't matter. Saddam needed to be removed, for the benefit of the people he was supposed to be leading.

I also don't like how some politicians here use the safety and lives of our soldiers for political gains. Keep in mind it was your candidate, kerry, who after voting to send the troops in, then decided to vote to not provide them with the funding they needed to give them all the protection possible. Why? because he saw that he could get more votes by being antiwar. It doesn't matter that his vote helped to increase the number of our troops dieing.

You speak of christianity being inconsistent, but all mankind is inconsistent. It doesn't matter what people say, all religions are man made. God might exist, but as far as I can tell people only listen to him when it benefits them. If they are like that now, do you really think the ones writing gods words weren't doing it then?

Its defenitely not ok for a christian to kill under any circumstances. Thoose who say something else arent pure christians, they follow hybride versions of christianity like babtism, catholicism, protestantism or whatever name they call it. All have their own way of "interpreting" the bible but none of them follow the word of Jesus to the point. His message is clearly nonviolenct and at all costs even your own life. Remember the sole has eternal life and what we do down here will affect where we go death. The important thing isnt to survive here on earth and to gather riches down here, its to gather your riches in heaven and to get eternal life up there. Anyone worshipping the market, earthly leaders or anything else upon earth will not get past st Peter, its as simple as that.
Jesus says somehting in the way "if someone takes your robe from you offer him also your shirt" (Im not fammiliar with the english version).

One of the things you are assuming is that all Christians are the same. The Christian faith has many branches and not any of them are identical.


My 2nd point is why not askt he same case about ISlam. Start a thread what would Mohammad do? We have history on what Mohammad did. He killed. Christ gave his life.

Isnt that what I said too BA , there are alot of interpretors around useing Jesus for their own agenda good or bad. They also add qoutes form the old testament when it suits them, even if they contradict Jesus. How can such teachings be called christian? Pure christians should ONLY follow what Jesus thaught, not add or deduct to his words as they see fit.

How was Hitler a threat in 1936? If you lived back then you probably would of been opposed to going to war. After all Germany was weak and not a threat. Oh sure he might have broken a treaty but we all know broken agreements that end wars are no reason to start back up hostilities.

No one said that Catholics are allowed to kill under any circumstances. Read the links I provided ... again I repeat if you can understand them. Admittedly they are not easy to understand, but I am happy I have found a fellow Catholic who speaks clearly with the correct answers;
and I think I will lean on Simon1 to answer the questions where I can only say something glib like maybe the Earth was the center of the universe in those days.

Think of that prophetically and maybe that's the idea that the Roman Catholic Church was trying to convey to the pagan masses of Europe, especially to those that still made human sacrifice to Diana and the moon. Maybe the Church was trying to convey the idea to the masses that Earth would provide for them if they learned how to work it like for example using a small fish for bait to catch a big one. You see Mog ... we Catholics are allowed to read between the lines of even the Bible.

Again though Simon1 has stated it properly (i.e. it is our FREE WILL that allows us to make the decisions necessary to care for our flock). Catholic doctrine is very rigid against killing of our fellow man and if you read you will find that even though a proper authority has the right to maintain order, they better have JUST CAUSE if they want to go to Heaven. I have admitted that I haven't been able in the past to control impulsively swinging back when struck which the Catholic Church states is not an act of free will but instead an act where control of free will has been at least temporarily lost and is to an extent forgiveable and is in conformance to the ideas of civilized society and proper authorities.

I didn't go home after being struck to get a weapon which would constitute premeditation and the use of free will to commit mortal sin if I were to use that weapon.
However, it is our FREE WILL that allows our proper authorities to make the decisions to go to war hopefully with JUST CAUSE to protect our people and all that we hold dear and I didn't say that man is infallible either. "To err is human", God knows we are sinners and we don't always get it right the first time (i.e. even though there are some things that must be done right the first time).

The Romans were far from non-violent but they were the authority in control and if one considers that they were protecting God's flock against the Parthian Empire (i.e. the same foe we face today but even more ruthless and despotic), then I have to say that the Romans were also considered a PROPER AUTHORITY by Jesus Christ who when He said "Render unto Caesar that which is of Caesar", He was saying to SUPPORT the Romans;
and so He was saying IMO to support the effort the Romans were making to protect His flock through war if necessary.

TR

Ok, i might have a mouthful here. A few things in this thread caught my attention, and i might go off topic a bit, but it is all to kind of tie it together, mostly

First of all, i think somebody mentioned all of this being God's will. unfortunately, God is not in control. that's the problem with the world. that's why there is a need for war. that's why there is a need for war. that's why there is a need for war. that's also why there is death, pain, suffering, hard decisions, anguish, and just about everything that isnt good. now

the old testament, in eccesiasties, (sp?) said that there is a time for peace and a time for war. Jesus Christ is not a contradiction to the old testament, but a fulfulment. The OT was focused on law. Man was all under sins influence, influence, not control mind you. The law was God giving hope, reaching into that world of sin, world meaning the earth, not the people in it, and giving his light. what Jesus did on the cross, wasnt die for our penalties, (thats a can of worms, but here's the trian of thought: him paying a penalty implies that he died because god took out his anger on him for sin, because he took on our sin, so that we wouldnt have to face that penalty, whereas what happened, was Jesus submitted himself to sin, face a separation of intmiacy with the Father, then submitted himself to death, for the purpose of defeating sin, so that he could give us victory over it, not just 'escape the penalty'. to say he died to take on the penalty for our sin, implies all of this. he died that we might have victory over sin.) this being said, he came to not abolish the law, but to offer victory over sin. he said himself that he came as a fulfillment of the law, not to break it. The law, or much of the OT, spoke to the nature of jesus christ, including eclesiasties.

Take hte example of hitler. Bad guy. Tried to slaughter people because of personal bias. It was right to wage war against him. no ifs, ands, or buts. Many times especially throughout 2 Samual, God had said to david to slaughter the philistines. the philistines were people who raided and pilliaged because they just wanted to. at any time, they could have stopped, any one of them could have come to be witht he people of israel, and chosen to not kill for bloodsport. we see this, because david lived with them for a while, to escape the crazed king saul.

now, to say god is in control would be to say that he is the one killing babies, the one ordering massive 'cultural cleansing' the one who desires to see the nation of india completely consumed in chaos, the one who ordered aids to kill thousands upon thousands every day, and hte one who proomotes the separation of his bride from being with him. Obviously, none of these are true.

It is not a 'sin' to believe that war has its place in the world, and be a christain. of course we all believe in war, we see, we KNOW that it happens. whether we think it is good or not is the question.
In the world where God is in control, which we can see a picture of in revelation, there is no war.

war is unfortunate but necesarry. it wouldnt happen if God was in control, because if he were in controll, there would be no sin, that is, there would be nothing in mans heart that would promote any reason for war. The thing is,
its not fortunate, but in many cases it is the right course of action.
and if you havnt guessed, this is coming from a very charasmatic christian.

now, about the pope. he isnt the only one that can talk to God. fortunately, Jesus Christ tore the vail, separating the inner court from the holy of holies. Before that happened, only the preists could go in to the holy of holies, more specifically, only the high preist, for that year, could go in. the holy of holies represents intimacy with God. Closeness with the Father. to believe that only one man is in comunion with the father is to deny the

Well actually I should have said that IMO the Old Testament is in contradiction to the teachings of Jesus Christ on many issues instead of saying that Jesus Christ is a contradiction to the Old Testament.
Maybe I or someone will give some examples some day and maybe someone can find that satyrical link on the Bible.

I'd sure like to see a few links provided on the Babylonian Talmud so that we can really compare religious ideas. I mean aren't Jesus Christ, the "Burning Bush" on Mtn. Sinai, Jehovah and Yahweh supposed to be one in the same?

PS:
I was shocked by the news in an article that the age for statutory rape is set at 12 years old in Florida. I think it is at age 18 in Jersey but I'm not sure anymore.
Why is the statutory rape set so low in Florida?

TR

But LOD, you lump them all in as Christians and you look at an example of bad people claiming to be Christians and expect all of us to stand trial for what some have done in the name of Christ.

Did I say they were bad or lump them together BA? Well in the way that they all use the mane of Jesus maybe but not in any other way. I just saying they are fake christians Its they themself that uses Christs name for something that doesnt follow his word. I guess a copyright would have been issued if he came today to stop things like that

Well LOD,
did Jesus Christ actually have a flock of real four-legged sheep that He wanted Saint Peter to tend for Him,
when He said,
"Feed my lambs. . . . Feed my sheep" (John 21:16-17)?

*(edit)* was to change "." to "?" mark.

TR

Last Edited : Wednesday, 3 August 2005 - 02:29