Blessed are the peace makers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Matthew 5:9

Anyway Jesus was a pacifist. Anyone who disputes this simply has misunderstood the Gospels.

Yes RexTorres,
that's one of the eight Catholic beatitudes we had to learn as part of our preparation for Confirmation.

The text of St. Matthew runs as follows:

Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Verse 3)
Blessed are the meek: for they shall posses the land. (Verse 4)
Blessed are they who mourn: for they shall be comforted. (Verse 5)
Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill. (Verse 6)
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. (Verse 7)
Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God. (Verse 8)
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. (Verse 9)
Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Verse 10)

www.newadvent.org/cathen/02371a.htm


TR

Lo and behold
the Brick Testament..
www.thebricktestament.com/

TaurusRex, thanks for your support!
)

Let me just make one last comment from my side. I know a WWII veteran (shot down over Germany, nine months in a POW camp, then forced to walk 600 miles in winter of 1945 by a bowl of watery soup a day - on so called "death march"), who in his memories made a bitter statement:

"Jesus said:
Blessed are the peacemakers.
HE did not say: Blessed are the peacelovers."

I agree with many in this forum, that too many people justify their personal ambitions with the words from God. Even the Nazis had words "Gott mit uns" (God is with us) on their belt buckles. (

It takes a lot of faith, and thought, and blessing, to truly recognize what God is telling us. Every day, every place.

Last Edited : Wednesday, 3 August 2005 - 07:52

Again Simon1 has worked magic with his intelligence.
Yes ... I missed that also but he is right and anyone who has stepped between two brawlers knows he has to be strong and prepared to be able to wrestle at least one of them to submission and it would take a gift from God to be able to subdue both of them without really trying to do harm.
Being a peace maker does sometimes take physical force.

PS:
Your quite welcome Simon1.
It's good to have your support also.

TR

PPS:
Is no one going to comment on Boe's post?
Satyrical yes but I recall getting exasporated trying to defend words from the Old Testament that I hadn't ever seen before.

TR

Well I'm going to ignore (at least for the moment) some of the interesting side spin offs in this thread.

Mog, you are walking home late one night. Off in a side alley you hear some kind of a scuffle. Looking down the alley you see a big guy attempting to rape a woman.

If Jesus were standing next to you, what do you think He would do?

Probably go try to stop him.

So how can you expect anyone who claims to be Christian stand by and do nothing when evil men are perpetrating crimes against humanity?

Yes war is extreme - but lets say you go to try and step the man, and he punches you in the face, then proceeds to attempt continue his efforts against the woman? At what point do you stop and say, well it's better to just let her be raped?

Now, I understand that it is certainly debatable whether the current war in Iraq is necessary, did we need to go to that extreme? As I have stated before, I personally have some reservations about it. I feel Saddam needed to be removed from power. I also feel diplomacy was never going to result in that. I at times wonder though if there might have been some other way (short of assassination which I don't care for the idea of either) to remove him. All realistically workable options seem to point to using force of some kind though.

Well, I'm not a Christian or Jesus, so I would help too. Jesus may have sacrificed himself so the woman could get away, I don't know. But the point is, if it is OK to do this, what were all those things he said about non-violence about? Just until you decide to use violence? A very confusing set of beliefs to me.

When does one stop turning the other cheek?

It might help if specific lines of verse from the Bible were quoted So that those of us who believe might be able to interpret them. Not all of us will have the same views like those who insist on a meaning exactly as stated (i.e. with no reading between the lines or metaphoric ideas), yet when certain verses seem to metaphorically support their views some if not all will do exactly that.

At least I admit that I read between the lines and it seems obvious to me that there is much symbolism in the Bible. For the verse "turn the other cheek", we could say that Jesus didn't say that He intended it to be an endless loop and then we could revert to verses which obviously imply that some men are as bad as the devil and we are given the right to resist the devil.

Don't misunderstand because many people were burned at the stake as withes because of possibly imagined devilish deeds, but I'm inclined to think that the concept of the devil also covered enemies and a person who would maliciously strike the other cheek of an innocent man until the innocent man became angered enough to realise that his offender must be possessed by the devil and so God through His disciples has said that he could resist this evil man;
and yes I'm reading between the lines, but are we going to deny that God means that some men are the embodiment of the devil here on Earth and that He has said to resist the devil and even to remove him from among us?

I haven't tried to put these verses in any kind of order and a few of these may have reference to the Old Testament but I'm not sure So to the best of my knowledge I offer the following references from the New Testament:

Psalms 144:1 - Blessed be the LORD my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight:

James 4:7 - Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Matthew 5:43 - Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

Luke 10:19 - Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

Ephesians 6:11 - Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

John 3:8 - He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Revelation 12:9 - And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 18:2 - And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
Revelation 20:10 - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


Matthew 7:22 - Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

PS:
There are many more but I have tried to pick some verses where it is obvious that use of the word devil is referring to bad people who do all sorts of bad things and I do mean things like murder and rape.

TR

"Just until you decide to use violence?" - Mog

Surely Mog you can see the difference between arbitrarily deciding to resort to violent means compared to using violence or force as a last resort? I ask again, at what point is it better that you just let the woman be raped? Now that doesn't mean we need to kill the would be perpetrator, but if he refuses all talk of reason or persuasion there is a point where one must physically intervene to protect the woman - and I find nothing in the scriptures (or specifically in the teachings of Christ) to suggest that we should walk away from such a situation. It is one thing to turn the other cheek when you are the subject of persecution, it is another to stand by and do nothing while the weak, the downtrodden, etc are spit upon or abused or murdered - and it is within your power to make a difference - even if by doing so you become the subject of persecution instead.

Last Edited : Thursday, 4 August 2005 - 22:45

Well let's hear it from all of you that don't agree or will a new thread be started with the same things having to be said over again .
I'm getting pretty good at "copying and pasteing" though ... I'll just recall the thread and do the same as I do with "how do I play".

TR

I think Fanatic comes closest to answering my question in his last post. It makes sense that you may help others and also that you may choose to suffer persecution to uphold your values.

Since I don't believe in the Devil, I can hardly ascribe men's actions to him, though, TR.

Thanks all, I'll close this thread now.