Sounds like ayder finally got what he kep asking for ;-)

well actually mass balista is unbeatable in battlae games that is.unless demonic or some other class comes up with 2 or three ghost type who can be hurt by physical but not ranged troops that would greatly cut down ranged troops battle advantage against demonic lets say or some ote class i dont know jus giving a suggestion.

what the h*ll??? 4000 points of like, heav cav can beat balista.

get all you un-ranged troops next to the ballista,nearer u get,less damge

..or give Shaevers an extra MP for that even closer shaev.

it wont always work HC are wortha lot of points.i dont think HC could beat mass ballista unless it were matched troop for troop.

Actually, Ultima, Hll proved earlier today that mass ballista are not unstoppable. The bad news for Ayder is that Hll didn't use any heavy cav

In any case, it's not entirely mass ballista. There's always a small stopgap in place be it spearmen, scouts or whatever.

how he stop it?

mass balistas strategy has a few weakness.
1. your melee troops are weak. most ppl chose pikes to shield off the balistas, because they know mounted troops is a big threat to balistas. but when your oponent uses squires you have difficult battle, squire is best response to pikes and ranged troops. if ppl use marks shoot your pikes, you can return fire with only a small part of your balistas. the others are stuck, out of range or to close in range. when your pikes are gone you have to shoot melee troops first while his ranged troops shoot your balistas without retaliation, because his melee hit your balistas first. and 10 marks with 100% bp kills 7 balistas when balista already used it's defensive attack.
2. this combo can only defend, when you have to move your formation you'll have to move through the passage between those 4 towers. this means, alots of those balistas are not active in battle. and balistas are slow, when they move they uses alots of bp so they lose alots of effect.
3. this combo can't hold vs demonic. alots of demonic players has alots of wygerns. if demonic get the first hit 1/3 of your balistas are dead b4 they can be usefull.
4. if you have not the right combo to counter this balista combo, you can move back and wait they come to you, this way you can use your castle road as fast transportation to hit those balistas. they are too slow to retreat.

knowing those weakness, such combo isn't hard to defeat. in my case I was luck having squires in my combo, I don't have to sit back waiting CDT come to me, instead of that I launch offence vs him, even he get the first strike, because 10 balistas can only kill 1-2 squire per turn, he doesn't make too much dmg at the first strike.

I directly challenge 2). This combo CAN attack. Granted not fantastically well, but it can attack. And quite possibly the range difference would be crucial in a long range shoot-off, when the game ends without both armies wiped out.

I would challenge 3, but unfortunately no-one's tested me on it. In any case, I'd mark the trees and walls so that there is no free spot for demons to land on save behind the ballista. Which takes mp, bp and will also probably put them in a worse geographical situation. In any case, if demonic got the first hit, you're not scouting properly, and thus deserve to be hit first ;-)

4) is a case of care. If I chased someone, I'd advance slowly as a pack. You generally can't retreat as a pack anyway...and in this game, retreat is almost ALWAYS followed by defeat.

Now, back to 1)...I used spearmen as a blocking wall...for about twice the price I could have used squires, but money-wise it would have been a far worthier investment. And it would probably have turned the battle around, if not that then it'd surely have been a little closer...

THAT bit was definitely a lesson hard learnt...

As for ranged defence....ranged defence does cut into the advantage that the firing unit has, but doesn't wipe it out. If a unit like knights or HC had ranged defence, we'd REALLY see a change in strategy around here!

One last thing. I know ballista only kill 1-2 squires at a go. But they 5-6 arbs as well. Ballista, as a rule, are not one-unit-killing-machines like marksmen. And as such, the advantage of hitting a unit once to rob it's retal and then piling into it isn't as effective...

The squires adjustment I will definitely make...I'll consider some others, though...many (but not all) of the points Hll has made are a case of troop management, not troop type.

Edit: P.S. I'm well aware that even with the planned changes I've got, it might not be enough and could even cost me my reputation. But for now at least, while there's a worthwhile chance I could be right and I'm on reasonably solid ground, I'll hold to this side of things...
*fingers crossed*

Last Edited : Sunday, 5 January 2003 - 18:41

CTD and hll, you both make good points. hll and I differ alittle on our value of ballistas...I use them often in campaign games...defensively of course, but just as much offensively. They are my umbrella of protection for my melee troops and I just pull in the reins on the horses and allow the ballistas to set the pace. There's nothing quite like ballistas in towers as you're assaulting a castle.

Now, as to the battle games...CTD, I'd like to give your strategy a go. Not talking about demons either..no flying troops to worry about, just good ole medieval. I believe I have the right combination to handle your melee protectors and mass ballistas. Let's try it out and then you can post the results.

there is no perfect tactics, otherwise every1 will use it... I think the best strategy is never use the same tactics, make it as difficult as posible for your opponent to guess your tactics.

Perfect tactics, we may not be able to accomplish.
But more importantly, not even hll or I execute every move perfectly every game. And THAT can also make the difference... :-)

The good thing of ballistas is in campaign they cost only 2 metal but 10 wood so you will have enough metal for the other units marksmen is 5 metal and 16 wood
2 x 5 = 10
5 x 3 = 15
so if you see the difference between wood and metal is much bigger then with the marksmen.
So if u really need metal for melee build ballistas

tested this startegy against demonic with CTD. I am the demonic player. CTD made more mistakes than I did. I scouts properly, get the first hit. but still lost big.
my combo was: 1 demigod, 1 demonlord, 6 wygerns and alots of neeths.
my experience about this game is:
demigod are too expensive. those only 2 demigod can kill 10 balistas already, but 10 demigods can only do kill 10 balistas per turn, in this situation I will gladly spits those 10 demigods into 5 stacks.
wygerns are quit good vs balistas, I should have more of them. but wygerns are weak as well. they die very fast.
demonlord is totally wrong investment in this game, because they are slow and expensive, but they are strong. against HC's they are good, but not vs balistas.
mass balista strategy is atleast demonic prove.
good game, CTD.

ps: any1 read my post at suggestion forum about demonic is way to weak. this is another prove of it.

Last Edited : Thursday, 9 January 2003 - 14:15

He's right. I spent my time watching the 'Vampire Slayer' a bit too much, didn't bother to scout properly, AND he snuck round the back. And he still lost.

Frankly, it was only a half good game. Hll's half with what he had to cope with.

We need specials on the demons. Fast.

Well Look at it like this i NEVER have a strategy.I often Rush into everything.......make some units.....get some techs and play.i usually end up in a good place so far ive never have gotten eliminated unless by inactivity.now if you have no strategy and do better then most players does that mean that your jus real good at the game or just luck?

Probably means that you are good tactically, but not strategically. Actually, you may be doing things well strategically also, but you form your strategy in reaction to what others are doing.

"There is no perfect tactic" I agree on that with hll.

Demonics vs Medievil

Well, demonics are powerful IF your opponent is not ready for them. However if your opponent
knows that you will be playing demonics, Knights/Arbs/Marks is all that's needed to beat demonics.
But then again Knights/Arbs/Marks can be beaten by HC/Marks.. and so on and so forth...
For every combination of troops there is a counter combination..
However demonics are WEAKER than medievil mostly because you cannot utilize all of their power.
In battle games we are stuck with stack sizes of 10 troops this makes DemiGods inefficient and seemingly too expensive..

As for Ballista vs Marksmen, I would go with marksmen. Marksmen have a higher attack rating and are more mobile.
In battle games marksmen's purpuse is to take out enemy buffer melee so that your own melee can attack the enemy ranged.
Marksmen are more efficient that ballistas in my opinion..

totally agree with boe.

some remarkable achievement of boe, he defeat my marks/knights combo with demonics, after 20 games undefeated by demonics, this "perfect" anti-demonics is not undefeated any more.