Really, Hwatta...I have never, ever, EVER heard of a school substituting math, reading, science, history, or writing for anything else. Kids today are STILL learning those subjects. To claim otherwise is ridiculous. Care to cite a source that says that schools have dropped math in favor of teaching girls to have lots of sex?

I seriously doubt the girls dropping out of school have been the ones who've been "educated" about sex. In sex ed, they tell you that the safest thing is to not do it at all, but they then show you how to do it safely if you're too rebellious/stupid/being-like-teenagers-have-been-since-the-dawn-of-time to listen to them.

Much like how if you live in a village next to a dangerous river. Obviously you'll tell your kids not to swim in the river, or they might drown. But wouldn't it also be wise to teach them to swim, just in case they fall in? Would you blame swimming lessons as the cause for a drowning death?

Getting back on topic...just like you insulted Gutterfly by insinuating that he's receiving a substandard education, I, as a future teacher, am not taking to kindly to all the claims that schools are useless for education purposes and serve only to advance the liberal agenda. Wake up.

TR: Mog hasn't posted in this thread. That was Finguld...but they have the same color, so it's an easy mistake to make.

Finguld: What would the Catholic school's standards be? I've attending a catholic school for 13 years, and aside from the religion/morality class we're obligated to take, along with going to church during school hours (both taking time away from other classes like...say...math) I don't see much different between catholic school and public school.

Ghengis: Catholic school doesn't make religious fanatics. We still leave that up to crazy parents. All Catholic school does is make you waste time writing essays about how your relationship with Jesus helps you in your everyday life. (not a lie...I've written at least one, sometimes two, of these every year in religion class since I was 13)

Last Edited : Saturday, 9 July 2005 - 19:03

Sage when you start teaching you will see the difference. What I am saying if a public school was like a Catholic school excluding religion and Church it would be producing kids ready to go to college at a much cheaper cost.

Sage
no thanks for your help because I know Mog hasn't posted in this thread but he is the moderator and the last reference to Catholics before my last post was not made by Finguld either.
If folks have a beef with the Catholic religion, there is an online Catholic forum if they care to vent there.

TR

Sage,
The fact that they are teaching girls to have sex in school means that they have stopped teaching reading, writing, math, history, and/or science during that time. The number of hours in the school day have not increased...they have gone down. With less hours to spend and more material to cover, where do you think the trade-off was made? Do you think they shortened your lunch period or your recess? Less art and music? Less library time (hmmm...you might have ground to stand on with this one)? The added/sustituted liberal agenda items and experiments took away from the actual teaching of subjects that have been proven to be effective over hundreds of years.

Why do you think standardized test scores are not increasing every year in absolute terms and compared to foreign countries? With all of the investment of money, technology, and such superb teaching skills, shouldn't our students excel? Are most American youngsters today just dumber than previous generations and most foreigners from industrialized nations?

I don't believe they are. I think they ARE getting a substandard education in many ways. What is your explanation?
Cheers,
H.

Hm...I'll tell you how my school did it, but I can't speak for any other school.

In my school, we had 9, 40 minute classes a day. On days when we had to fit in something extra (like prayer, or some nice man coming in to tell us why we should wait til marriage for sex) here's what we'd do:

Classes would be shortened by 4 or 5 minutes each. By this time, the teacher had almost always finished teaching, and the kids were given time to either work on homework (if any was assigned) or socialize. By removing that 4 or 5 minutes from each class, they were able to squeeze in 45 minutes for whatever our special activity was, and it didn't detract from the other classes at all. In fact, for us students, the days seemed 45 minutes longer. The classes didn't seem any shorter for us (since we still had the same amount of learning/work) and then they go and tack on a 45 minute lecture on the end of it...*******s.

And yes, our lunch got shortened too. And what they did to our recess time is even worse! They abolished recess back when we left elementary school, those *******s...I want to play tag!

Well to me I think school should last only 5 hours. Maybe go 7-12 then have the kids go home and do homework. Then there would be no need for recess or lunch.

OK, I have to say something here.

I didn't post anything about Catholics, but even if I had, it isn't a personal attack on a player here. People are free to attack any idea or religion here, witness all the stuff about Islam! Since Catholicism was brought up, it is fair game for criticism. If you don't like it, try not reading the forums. That's what they are here for, ideas.

Stifling debate isn't what a moderator does. I was given the job of keeping obscenity and personal abuse out of the forums. I ask people to change things I think are violations unless it is so clearly obscene that it must go. If you don't like the way I handle the job, feel free to ask Req to fire me.

Your Mogerator

You can talk about most anything, unless you mention Mog's name... er I mean the censor's name then he will post something opposing your using God's name.... er ... I mean the Moderator's name in vain (without his previous permission, I assume in writing) and then he will close the thread.

Hwatta, recess is only in elementary, there's no recess to cut into. My sex ed experience took place in my science class, as we were pretty much being taught biology. We were being educated...in school. What a travesty. Sage's analogy on sex ed was perfect, and we weren't just being taught how to "do it." We were getting real information. We were educated on the biology of the reproductive organs, and given a terrible amount of knowledge on STD's that were no doubt designed to scare the hell out of us. This was an actual unit within my science class, and lasted about a week. No cutting into math, history, or english, but it all took place in a science class, because well, thats the perfect subject it falls under. I think its perfectly justified, and you're just making gross exaggerations Hwatta.
We're learning about sex?!? Oh no, but what about math, why aren't we learning math!?! Please.
If Sex Ed is your only evidence of the "liberal agenda" in the schools, I'm not convinced.

Mog
for the record I didn't say that you said anything about Catholics. I said that I resented THE LAST REFERENCE to Catholics BEFORE MY LAST POST ON THE PREVIOUS PAGE OF THIS THREAD and I also acknowledged that I knew you hadn't posted in this thread before your last post on this page So there shouldn't have been any question that I wasn't referring to anything you said.

Well you are the moderator So I'll accept your decision as I get myself out of the corner.
Here's a link to the online Catholic forum for anyone interested:

forum.catholic.org/

TR

I don't think teaching sex ed in science class in high school is inappropriate. I should have realized that my comments would be viewed through your particular situation right now instead of as a general indictment of the liberal agenda as it occurs across our entire school system. The inappropriate sex ed is being taught in my childrens 3rd and 5th grade classes. It does not belong there and it does cut into other coursework.

In high school, my son is dealing with such English masterpieces as "A Raisin in the Sun", "Fences", and "Feila's Child" which all deal with aspects of black culture and oppression...plus, some other stories thrown in dealing with the ravages of drunk white guys. The teacher is not black and the number of black students in the school is not over 12%. Can you explain a rational reason why the English class would focus on black culture for 75% of the studies and disparage white males? I can, but you won't like it.

I can give you many examples. I have not been to grade school or high school in some time, but I do take university classes. Combined school experience as a parent and student is over 58 years. I have dealt with Catholic schools, Christian schools, public schools...good and bad in each. I am only providing this information so you understand that I have some experience, a valid perspective, and I know what I am talking about. I am not some old drunk from the books in my son's English class who is just trashing the younger generation because they are different. Kids who make it through our school system and know how to read, write, do math, and care about history, culture, and politics are rare...not so much here in WoL, but throughout the population in general. I am generally awed by the young members of our WoL community and I hope for the best for all of you...and your children. That is why I take the time to write all of this. The first step is to let you know that even if your school is working fine...others are not. The evidence is out there.
Cheers,
H.

PS:
To be more specific this that follows is the reference to Catholics to which I refer above:

"Ghengis Khan +=>
Joined 3/24/2003
Posts : 735
Posted : Saturday, July 09, 2005 - 18:12
yes teach the kids catholic standards, that way we can have a whole new group of religous fanatics running around blowing people up."

To the best of my knowledge there is no history of Catholics in the USA blowing anyone up.

TR

Thank god for that first part, that you think sex ed for teenagers is appropriate. Because teens are the ones who really need it.

I don't know about 3rd grade, but 5th grade was where I was first exposed to the dreaded "family life" course, which covered sex ed. I use the term sex-ed loosely. They seperated the girls and the guys into seperate rooms and explained the sorta things that happened during puberty so that the kids wouldn't be scared ****less the first time they had a wet dream or their period. They explained the basics of sex, and (being a catholic school) gave us the abstinence speech. Do public school's have the little 5th graders practicing putting condoms on bananas?

My theater class saw "A Raisin in the Sun" performed. It wasn't a bad play. Sure, we were the only white kids in the audience, and the play was definitely centered around black culture, but it was still a good play.

Still, maybe schools should keep that sort of thing for black history month. If it makes you feel any better, high school students usually don't read whats assigned to them anyways. Most rely off of a select few to read it (people like myself) and then tell them what happened.

Most kids can read, write, and do math when they finish school. Caring about history, culture, and politics is more rare because, in general, teenagers are apathetic. So you won't find them WANTING to read, hating to write, and purposely forgetting all the math they learned as soon as they stop using it. This isn't the school's fault...it's the kids' damn attitude. And I don't see how you can fix that. *shrugs* Bah...kids today. Slackers. All the lot.

Sage, and how old are you? My daughter just left 4th grade and they had a sex ed class. 10 yesrs old. They did offer me or my wife the option to attend with her, but wouldn't that be embarrasing for her?


The liberal agenda is all over the current education system, you know, the one that is failing. College, Highschool, where ever.

I'm 17, turning 18 in September, about when I'll be entering college.

4th grade for your daughter, 5th grade for me...not that much different. I ask...was your daughter's sex ed class as tame as what I described, or did they have her putting condoms on a banana? The banana I could condemn.

Mmhmm, I had the 5th grade talk as well, but it was basically about puberty. A lot of parents are uncomfortable explaining these sorts of things to their little kids, so I'm grateful for it. A permission slip was required however, for parents who didn't want their children to attend.

And in Houston, where I'm from, whiteys are a minority. They are now outnumbered by Hispanics, then whites come in second, and blacks are a close third. The only one of those pieces that you've mentioned, Hwatta, that I've read is Raisin in the Sun. To add to that list, I've also read ...Y no se lo trago la tierra(...And the Earth Did Not Devour Him), a piece about the oppression of Hispanics. And I was educated about other races' struggles here in America, pieces of our American history. I don't find anything wrong with that. 3 pieces on black oppression in the same year, yeah, thats a little overboard, but thats the first time I've heard of that ever.

And I'm glad you're sharing your opinions and views with me Hwatta, I really am. I agree, the school system really isn't perfect, but we just disagree on whats wrong with it and how to fix it. I know I'm a young 'un, but I'm right here inside the system, I talk to kids in the system everyday, the screw-ups and the ones that excel, so I hope you value and listen to my opinions as much as I am yours.

Since we both agree public schools need fixing, here is my take on how to help move it along, please feel free to criticize it on up and share yours.

First, teachers need more of a career path, more motivation. Many good teachers are lost because they are identified as teachers with a gift, and instead of keeping them as teachers, they move on up to administration. There's no motivation for good teachers to keep teaching. If you get your Masters degree and keep teaching, you get 1,000 dollars added on to your annual salary. Not much of a bonus for working your ass off for two years and spending money on your own education. Get your Doctorate and keep on teaching, $2,000. If teachers were given more money for exceling in their craft, there would be more motivation to stay as a teacher and to hone your craft.

Second, people seem to think that putting more money into the below-average schools(which are typically the schools in bad parts of town) will help improve the education there. As I've stated before, no matter how great of a school you put kids into, if they have a terrible living environment with bad influences, they're set up to fail. The money should be going into the actual communities, not the school.

Last, for now, is there needs to be a different way in which the material is taught to kids. As of now, kids are given notes, they copy down and ingest, and then they spit things back up on the test. No decision-making, no strategic thinking is taught. Kids aren't taught to think for themselves, they're taught to have one-track minds in which they take in information to be spat back out at a later date. Change cirriculum in which kids have a chance to discover things for themselves, lessons in which they actually have to use their damn minds, and we'll have quite a few more thinkers right there.

Of course, this is all based on my perception that there is no crazy liberal agenda in the schools, and that liberals aren't ruining the system.

And one more little note...

Seems like most schools across the nation have the same issues, despite schools being run by the state. Solid red states have the same issues as the blue states, hmmm...crazy liberal plot?

HAVE THOSE DAMN SOCIALISTS INFILTRATED THE REPUBLICAN PARTY?!?!?

I can testify to the fact that regurgitating random facts isn't learning. I, at one time, "knew" all 206 (I think!) bones in the body for anatomy class. We had a test where we had to list all 206, broken down into categories. Do I remember them now? Some of them, the obvious ones, but most are goooone.

At one time I "knew" the entire line of Spanish kings and queens. Regurgitated it onto the test, got an A, that knowledge is gone.

Almost EVERYTHING from history class, gone. The only things I remember are the facts that had funny stories to go along with them (our history teacher was an old guy who could have been a stand-up comic...only thing that kept me awake).

The problem though, is that this sort of thing is always going to happen. The only way somebody learns something and keeps it is if they're interested. You're NEVER going to get a lot of kids interested in their schoolwork. Some subjects are boring by nature.

"I can testify to the fact that regurgitating random facts isn't learning."

Well looks like your made to enroll into the school of education. Learning facts in school is out of style these days. It is more important to have the students give an uniformed opinion about a subject than to learn any facts.

One of the biggest problem with schools is that they are run by former education majors. Education majors score the lowest on standardized tests. often these classes in college are a joke. Trust me I had to take some of them.

Oh yes, feel free to butcher what I said to mean that all facts should be thrown out the window.

I said REGURGITATING facts wasn't helpful. And how can you debate that? If a kid makes a flashcard that says the Battle of Gettysburg started on July 1st, 1863, memorizes that fact, takes the test, and then promptly forgets, what has he learned? Nothing.

I'm all for facts in school. You NEED to learn facts. But tests should be designed so that a kid can't pass without understanding the material. Right now it's possible to pass a history test and completely misunderstand the subject matter. After the civil war section of my American History class, we still had a lot of kids thinking the war was fought to free the slaves. They may memorize for a few days that Stonewall Jackson died on May 10th, 1863, but they don't comprehend at ALL how big of a blow that was to his side's war effort.

Moving away from history and into literature. If it's possible to not only pass, but do well on a test on "Much Ado About Nothing" without READING IT, the tests are designed wrong. If the kids don't read literature in a literature class, what are they there for?

And in closing, I'd like to thank you for basically calling my major a joke and saying people holding education majors are idiots. Perhaps you'd like to tell me what YOU do for a living so I can take a few stabs at it, eh?