Well yes I was going to also add that the negative pollution qualities of fossil fuels may also be a reason the unconventional sources of oil aren't yet being tapped but they are there.
Also diesel fuel is being produced from soybeans and we use ethanol already mixed with conventional fuel.

TR

Mog, if you want to make a point by using something other than an anti-Bush organization, go a head. Also make your argument relative.

For those of us who are old enough to remember:
Carter told the nation we had to stop our dependence on forgin oil and started an effort to devlop alt. enrgy sources, that effort was dismantled by Regan. Under Regan, we supplied arms to Afgan rebels fighting the Soviets, the same people who gave Osama a safe haven and base of operartions. Gas prices are $2.04 for regular in my home of San Antonio, TX, and I remember spending night after night helping my now 23yr old neice study for her acidemic assement test (insted by GW) rather than learning somthing new in order to get out of High School. The point I'm making is that Republicans have had just as big part in putting this nation in trouble as they try to blame Democrats for. Big Amigo, Fox news is not gospel!

I also remember when Carter was President we had the highest level of unemployment since the great depression coupled with the double digit inflation. These are 2 economic events that are not supposed to happen at the same time. Taxes were out of control and the democrats conroled congress for over 40 years.

Our military rediness had dropped to an all time low since before WWII. We had US citizens being held by Iranian terrorist in Tehran and also by Palestenian terrorist in Lebannon.

Ronald Regan saved or nation by cutting taxes, building our military back to the best in the world and was the mastermind behind the demolition of the most evil empire to exist on earth since Hitler.

Yes, there are many people that hurt more than they help. They can be both Democrats or Republicans, What you call yourself is irrelevent to me. But, sometimes there comes along a great leader that does what needs to be done, no matter how unpopular it may be. Ronald Regan was one of those leaders, as I also believe GW Bush to be.

During the Clinton years, we got fat stupid and lazy, just like our leader. We grew on the aspirations of a stock market that was just a floating bubble, we over taxed our citizens and failed to make the necessary adjustments to a post cold war intelligence and military environment. What happened Sept 11, 2001 was a result of the Clinton Years.

Stand with the Democrats if you choose, its a free nation, thank God. But watch as the movement continues to grow. Some people get to be on the news or in the spot light and they can make it look as if they are speaking for the world, but they are not. They can set up bogus news web sites and blogs to use as propaganda machines but it wont work. The free world can vote with their... well their votes and as the number of Bush supporters grow here in the US. As the support for Blair grows in Britian, it appears that Blair is expected to be reelected, it is becomming obvious that the more silent majority support doing the right things.

Beserk, if you have a 23 year old niece still in high school, then you of all people should understand that the system as failed her. If we keep doing what were doing, we'll keep getting what were getting. It's time to raise the standards, it's time to stand and be heard, it's time to say that we dont just have to accept the world we have been given, but we can improve it. It begins with the basics, freedom. Give it a chance. If your not part of the solution, your part of the problem. John Kerry and Ted Kennedy are not part of the solution.

OK, I guess I did win my argument, you STILL haven't addressed my point, BA, because you can't, apparently.

Why did GWB not do anything to increase safety in the vital industrial locations if not because the lobbyists for those industries told him not to make them do so? Got any answer?

Don't harken back to Reagan, don't tell me I'm using slanted media, just PROVE ME WRONG!

www.mpogd.com
In the meantime, while we wait for an actual answer from BA, go ahead and vote for WOL.

Well Mog

#1.. you provide no proof here. Just finding a website that says something without proof is not providing proof for yourself. If I start a website based on biased opinion, it can not be used as refrence in an unbiased argument.

#2. Relevence? Can you prove that these places are targets of terrorist? SO far they tend to want to kill people, not chemicle plants. 2a. Why would a chemicle plant attack be any worse than any other industry

#3. Costs, we simply can't nationalize the security of ALL industries. We have to pick where the most damage can be asserted. Such as flying planes into skyscrapers look to be most likly.

#4. Constitutionality, If the government were to stamp down control of all key industrties, then the argument would be that our fascist gvt is tredding on everybody's rights even more.

#5. Something has been done. By attacking the sources of terrorism we are taking the war to their door. How many WOL games have you won by only fighting at YOUR castle and not your enemies. Do you leave troops to protect your gold mine and resources when you are inside the enemies castle, takeing over his barraks and killing his troops? Quite honestly we are winning this war. 5a, necessity - as is shown by the fact that there has not been an attack on American soil since 9/11, there may not be a need for it. Why not ask why we are not protecting the vital retail industry or the vital auto industry? (this relates to item #2 & 2a).

How's that?

Can I assume then that you are agreeing with my consenting opinion of your points?

No, but I need some time to reply. I want to research this point but it is time consuming. I would like to point out that the 9/11 commision pointed at chemical plants as a prime terrorist target. Think about the Union Carbide disaster in Bhopal India in 1984. A tank of poisonous gas was released on the population of a city. 20,000 immediate deaths, hundreds of thousands of lingering illness and early deaths. Multiply that by a few times and you have a real mess on your hands.

The airplanes into the buildings trick was for a splashy show to get our attention. Next, Osama wanted us to squander our resources and world-wide goodwill after 9/11 and create a climate where he could recruit more terrorists easily. GW played right into his hands if you ask me. These terrorist guys know that they can't invade this country, but they can destroy us economically, which is even better for them. Get the world to hate us by invading a number of countries and killing all kinds of people, grow a few thousands more martyr type terrorists.

Anyway, I am not relenting one bit about what has occurred under this administrations watch. I quoted one website just to make my point, but I believe with time I can show you that what I am saying is true and you should be outraged at the incompetence displayed by our government so far. So hang on, BA, you'll be a liberal yet, and that's the best thing to be!

www.mpogd.com
Your vote means nothing in the US elections, but on MPOGD it means a lot!

- * Big A goes for the Dagger--

MOG - "Get the world to hate us by invading a number of countries and killing all kinds of people, grow a few thousands more martyr type terrorists."

The terrorist are doing the killing though. Have you not been watching the news? It is the invading terrorist that are killing people, not US, not dessenting Iraqis. Did you not see yesterday when over 60 innocient Iraqi citizens were murdered by the terrorist? Maybe you dont consider that wrong, maybe you celebrate when the terrorist are successful. Do you hate America so much that you rejoice with your anti-American friends when AL-Queida kills hundreds of inncocient people?

Wake up and look at the facts. We were sucker punched because for 8 years Clinton sit on his fat ass, took advantage of young girls and lived a King's life while our economy prospered. If all that wealth had been put into the intelligence and military we may not have had 9/11. We had attacks on the WTC the first time and we sit and did nothing to our attackers. So they kept comming, they destroyed 2 embassies, we did nothing, they attacked the USS Cole, we blew up a pick up truck with a $1 Million missle. So they kept comming. They attacked us, killing over 3,000 people just 8 months into GW's presidency and he took the fight to them and they quit attacking us.

Our industries, our economy, or citizens and our freedom are being protected, by Americans in the middle east. Would you rather be defending freedom in the midwest? If so continue to vote for the Democrats. It's a free world. Well.. it's not really, but it is a free country, were working on the free world part.



Oh and dont forget to vote
www.mpogd.com

Thats one vote that can't be wrong.

Nonsense, all of it.

Terrorists, unlike you, do not differentiate between dead Americans here, or dead Americans there. They do not differentiate between infrastructure destroyed here, and infrastructure destroyed there. They do not differentiate between scarce resources spent here, or scarce resources spent there. Midwestern Americans ARE the ones dying over there, Midwestern American money is what is being spent on a war started on false pretenses over there.

Terrorism only can succeed when the attacked state over retaliates against the terrorists and attacks its own citizens. That is the road we are on, we are not there yet, but with the erosion of our freedoms, erosion of the strength of our economy, the stretching thin of our military, Bush is driving us there and you are cheering him on. It is YOU who hates America since you so obviously hate half of all Americans.

Clinton is a past president and no amount of Monday morning quarterbacking will help you.

Last Edited : Thursday, 5 May 2005 - 12:53

The best thing for us to do is shut down our borders and let no one in. THEN if someone starts acting up in the world give them a timeline to comply by. If they don't comply, then BAM their country is now a parking lot. Bush is an idiot. All he's doing is following a plan his father set in motion. Tax breaks for the wealthy continue to hurt our economy NOT help it. Big business take their companies outside the U.S. because they can get cheaper labor in 3rd world countries then ship their products back home to the U.S. and we end up paying double the amount it took them to make the product in the first place. Bush is driving this country back into depression mode and there doesn't look to be any stopping him. It's not about republicans vs democrats anymore. It's about one man who is single handedly destroying our nation and no one is stopping him. If anyone cares I didn't vote democrat or republican this past election. I went as always with Ralph Nader who has better ideals in place than the two that originally ran for office.

I posted last night and it didn't appear so I will try again.

BA, I agree that saddam needed to be removed from Iraq, but saying GW is in the same league as Reagan is a joke.

Up until a week before the elections I was a GW supporter. Then I heard something on the radio that made me decide not to vote for him. No I didn't vote for Kerry or Nader either, as IMO they were worse choices than bush. What I heard was that shortly after the 911 attack saudi arabia asked the president to get several of bin laddens family members that were in our country and get them out of the country and he used air force one to do it. Maybe someone who likes to serf the web can see if there is anything written on it and then post it.

You asked Mog to provide proof of what he was saying and he has done that. Claiming that it is biased doesn't remove it from being proof. Everything is biased in this type of situation, some reports just cover it better. Mog in return has asked you to provide proof other than your biased oppinion and as of yet you haven't done it.

I heard that Bush did try to stop the companies from moving over seas but that the democrats blocked the bill. I not defending bush I just want everyone to understand that he and the republicans aren't the only ones that are causing the problems. Bush isn't interested in improving the country all he wants to do is maintain the status quo. Just like the democrats.

Mog you sit here blaming us americans for all the trouble in the world. Saddam needed to be removed it should have been done when bush's father was in office, but he lacked the balls to do it. Keep in mind that saddam was placed in power by a democratic american government, and left in control so he could murder thousands of his citizens by goverments like france and germany, who were friendly to him and knew they could make money from him as long as he stayed in power. They were the ones who didn't want us to continue once we freed kuwait, and they were the ones who broke agreed upon sanctions so saddam could remain in power killing thousands of people. Why? because they were getting the oil cheap and making a profit off of it. Hell several months after the invasion new rockets made in france, after the invasion started, were captured in terrorist hands. I'm not talking in possesion of soldiers, I'm talking about people who don't care who they hurt.

It sucks that bush is an idiot! It is even worse that his commanders are only slightly smarter than him. They did nothing to plan for after saddam was defeated and are suffering because of it. The people I feel sorry for are the american soldiers and the iraqi citizens that are getting killed because of it. But bush is not the one murdering them that is the terrorist doing.

I agree that bush sucks, but instead of running around with your brained turned off claiming that the democrats or the republicans would be better learn the truth. They are two sides of the same coin, and as long as we continue to blindly follow one side or the other this crap will contiue.

Nobody has the right to question my wanting the best for America! How dare any of you say that! Man, that really makes me mad. Just because I point out that the current administration isn't to my liking, I never said anything about America that couldn't be considered "patriotic" although I hesitate to use that word.

How does my asking for better safety here make me someone who blames all the world's problems on America? We have our share of the guilt for the way things have turned out in the world, Terrorists don't want to be like us, they want us to stop doing what made them terrorists in the first place, which is to leave them powerless in their own country by supporting the tyrannical regimes that enslave them, such as Saudi Arabia.

Why do you suppose bin Laden and the hijackers were predominantly from Saudi Arabia? The west has shored up the crap rulers there since the beginning and the Kings have used that support to supress any and all moves toward freedom there. bin Laden hit us because we support the regime that enslaves his people. He is a smart, crazy man.

What one calls a terrorist, another calls a freedom fighter. It isn't black and white. I do not support armed conflict in general. If we wanted to get rid of Saddam, we could have used the world opinion and (I know) the UN to remove him. Then the world wouldn't be able to point at us and say we are imperialists. Instead, GW went ahead on his own and now we get to pay in blood and money.

The US is at fault with many of the problems in the world today and shouldn't dismiss honest complaints about how we conduct ourselves. Other nations are also at fault and should also shoulder the blame.

We have really different views about all of this, I realize, but I have thought long and hard about these issues and I'm not parroting any party line. I want Americans to be happy, healthy and free. I see the current people in charge doing their best to make sure that isn't the case.

BA, and others, don't you have any reservations about the giant military-industrial complex ( Eisenhower warned us about them) that makes the rules? They can send your jobs and sons overseas without Congressional approval. The US has the biggest debt and trade imbalance ever right now. We are being sold to the world. The rich can hide in Switzerland, but I can't.

Another thing, exactly how are we spreading freedom? We are killing thousands of people, it's true. Iraq will never have a real democracy, they don't want one, they want a dictatorship of religion and they will have one. For every "terrorist" you kill, 10 spring up to take their place. If you really wanted a solution, it will come from talk and compromise, not war. Compromise is something people do when they know they can't win on their own terms, and we can't. How are we supposed to fight the entire Muslim world forever? That is lunacy to me. These are people, just like anywhere and can be reasoned with. The people who can't be reasoned with will shout my kind of voice down, but most people want to be left alone to get on with their lives. We can't control the enitre world.

So watch it when you start spraying that "unpatriotic" crap around. I differ from you on methods, not results.


www.mpogd.com
A vote is good.

At last an honest oppinion from you. Not just crap totally against one person. I admit bush isn't the best, but after what has been shown in other post how can you even believe that the UN would have done anything to remove saddam?

The oil for food scandal, the UN helping palestinians loading missiles into vehicles to attack isreal.

Leaving the terrorist alone wont solve the problem. They are jelous and affraid of what we have, because it is different and it works. They have been taught that you take what you want by force, and then use the media and softhearted liberals to keep it or get more.

In the readers digest I read an article that talked about how the palestinians used the media to accuse isreal of killing a boy during a shoot out with terrorist. It was spread all over the world and alot of people cried out that isreal should pay. You know what, there is quite a bit of evidence that shows the video to be false. Yet the damage was already done, do you think those media places that glorified the lies made just as big an effort to clear it up. There was another one showing muslems being abused by british soldiers, this one was proven to be false, but once again the media had jumped all over the lies without verifing the truth.

I wasn't saying you don't care for america, and my comments weren't based strictly off of what you said in this thread. You have made other very accusatory post in other threads an come off being very democratic. I to want the best for america, unfortunately I am part of a corrupt system and don't know how to change it. We aren't in this currrent situation strictly off of what bush has done, we are here because the country as a whole perfers to remain stupid. Then if something happens they don't like, they just say well I didn't vote for him.

The entire country has gotten to the point where it is not responsible for its actions. Or at least they deny responsibilty for their actions.

There is way too much here since my last post to make a reply to everything. I'll say this:

Too many people don't take responsibility for their own actions, or lack of actions. If you don't like the people making the decisions it's easy to just call them an idiot. After all do you really have to prove it? Somebody that opposes the current path we are on, tell me what you would have done. We were just hit by Al-Queda, basically blind sided. Saddam openly wanted us defeated, paid money to Palistinian murderers, took out a bounty on a sitting American President. Given the chance he would have nuked us if he could. The war with Iraq was necessary because it was not done right back in 1991.

Do I think everything was done perfect, no, it was done by humans. Do I think everything that has been done was done the way I wanted it, no. But I do think it was done with the best of intentions. I do not think that everybody had the best of intentins in mind when they acted. But I think GW and the administration did and still do.

There's so much here is right and most of it is "beating a dead horse".
BigAmigo has amazingly given a brilliant answer as usual to this onslaught and I can only agree with him that I believe that GW acted in good faith.
I believe he really did believe that Saddam had WMDs on hand and that the danger of him using them was imminent.

Our Secretaty of Defence created an awesome scenario of how WMDs could be delivered from even tankers offshore and I believe he was also sincere in describing the potential danger. To make matters worse our troops were in full gas defence gear waiting for orders to engage while temperatures were rising and I believe the idea that our troops might be defeated by their on body heat was also a major factor behind the urgency.

Again I think WMDs could probably have been obtained even though they weren't found.

TR

Last Edited : Thursday, 5 May 2005 - 21:44

Yes, so if a guy says "I want to kill you, I am going to go find a gun, I'll be right back. Don't go any where because I know where you live". You know this guy is serious because he has killed other people and he ahs trie dto kill you before.

What do you do? Well the POLICE-- aka the UN. Did nothing about it, so we did. IF he had it or not he acted like he did. And if he did, he would use it.

We did what was necessary. Now, we solve the problem, we take care of the bad guy and all is better, right? No, now these other bad guys come around and kill innocient people and the blame us for it. That's stupid.

Im not too familiar with the american law. Over here, if you go to a guys house, put a torch to it, burning it down, with him within it, you would get a life sentence for murder. If he had made threats towards you or even killed others would make no diffrence.

Hey I'm going to have to do stuff like that more often, I actually got what I was trying for. An honest oppinion with out any of the political crap from both Mog and BA.

I'd do the funky eyes thing but I don't know that one.

BA once you drop all of the Bush is great propaganda crap I can actually agree with what your saying. As I've said before saddam needed to be removed and its a travesty that it wasn't done earlier.

Mog I have nothing against a person expressing an oppinion and you definitely do that. For decades our soldiers have been targeted by terrorist at embassys in other countries. To the most part we have ignored it as it is part of a soldiers job to be the target. While that may not have been our first mistake, ignoring it didn't make the problem go away. Now they have attacked civilians on our home land and we have stopped ignoring it. After 911 bush made a statement that we would no longer sit back, that we would take active measures to stop terrorism, and he gave a warning to governments that support terrorism. Saddam clearly was a supporter of terrorism and removing him removed one of the largest threats in that area.

Was there alterior motives for invading Iraq? More than likely, especially considering politicians don't do anything helpful, without gaining something from it. Even if going after iraqs oil was the real reason we invaded them, the fact that saddam was finally removed from power is the best thing that could have occured. It never would have happened under the UN, because the UN is no longer useful. Each member is more concerned with how they can make a profit out of the situation than in doing the right thing.

Now if you really want to protest, instead of complaining about us doing something that was necessary, find out what is being done with the oil and who is profiting off of it. Then raise a stink and get something done about it.

You can rage all you want about us removing a murder from control of a country, but I will always support the decision to have it done. I just don't agree with how they handled the situation after words.

answer to the original question, I have been around to stir things up with my ignorence.