We will never be sucure until we control our borders. 9/11 happened because the terrorists knew we didn't enforce our immirgation laws and they know we still don't . If someone enters your house and attacks you because you didn't keep your door locked, do you still keep it unlocked? I think we should all ask the President and Congress why.

As for Iraq, we never should have went there, Osama attacked us, not Saddam. If we had made as big an effort in Afganistan as we have made in Iraq, we would have fufilled GW's wish of getting him "dead or alive" by now.

So we should not attack somebody until they attack us first? Wouldn't it be better to eliminate it before it happens? He would have attacked us if he could.

Would you have been for us invading Afghanistan on Sept 10, 2001?

That's right BA, if he could, he couldn't. He couldn't even attack us the 1st time. After the 1st war his military was routed and we still had planes patroling his airspace until GW decided to go after him Iraq wasn't an offensive threat to us. N. Korea is a very real and more serious threat but we haven't done anything other than talk. Why? What's the diffrence between those nations? In the meantime Osama is still plotting, and the door is still wide open becasue this President and this Congress, just like all the Presidents since Carter and Congress that came before for roughly the last 30 years have done NOTHING to fix the problem.

Actually he was shooting at our planes, had been for a long time. Also do you not give any weight to the fact that he tortured and murderd hundreds of thousands? Was that not an important thing to stop? Are the lives of the innocient not important to you?

So basically you think we should not get involved against any country until after they attack us, no matter what they do to any body else or if they have plans to atatck us first.

You sure are a nice person...... to bad people.

There are bad people all over the globe. Would you have us take care of them as well? we haven't. By what your'e saying we should have invaded or nuked N. Korea at least 3years ago . We didn't get into WW2 until after Pearl Harbor, we didn't go to war with the USSR, and we didn't get into the current war footing until after 9/11. If there was no oil in the Middle East, I doubt we would ever have been there in the first place. No, I don't do nice things for bad people. I keep my distance and keep my eyes open. I live by there won't be no trouble unless you start it but, if you do, I will give you more trouble than you could ever imagine! Iv'e said it before and I'll say it again for your benefit; We went after the wrong target.

We went after the right target. There are others...the President called them the "Axis of Evil". Out of those, Saddam gave us the best reason to take him out. Just because we have not hit Iran or North Korea yet, don't think they missed the message we meant to send regarding WMDs and terrorist links. Libya wasn't even listed and they got the message loud and clear. Syria is getting the message...notice anything happening in Lebanon? The others are just a bit more stubborn...or more stupid...or both. They will not do anything to give us an excuse...especially as we begin to draw down our force requirements in Iraq.

Time will tell.
Cheers,
H.

H, we went after Saddam because we had the wrong intel, or at least that's the story so far. Remember the WMD's that still haven't been found? Then the story changed from that to freeing an opressed nation. I am not against going to war if really necessary, and IMO Afganistan yes...send more troops until the job is done, but Iraq is a mistake.

We went after Saddam because we (US, UK, UN, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and many others) were convinced we had the right intel. Saddam DID have WMD...he used them on the Kurds in Iraq and against the Iranians. He failed to document that he had destroyed them as requested by the UN. NOBODY was willing to take his word for it and he would not cooperate with the inspectors. The US, UK, Australia, and a number of others were willing to put teeth behind the UN request. Saddam was aiding terrorists and there was a credible risk that he would provide WMD to the terrorists to use against us.

Reasons for war don't get any more clear than that...unless you want to wait for a major metropolitan area to be attacked and suffer hundreds of thousands of casualties.
Cheers,
H.

He does , thats his whole argument. That we wait till we get attacked before doing something about it.

I find it interesting that no one ever mentions the sarin gas that was found in Iraq. That story was quickly covered up and forgotten..
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4997808/
www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120137,00.html
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33082-2004May17.html

Beserk, how do you eat an elephant? One piece at a time right? The same process is being used with these leaders. Saddam just happened to be the first.
Oh and Beserk, Saddam was killing innocent people.. IMHO that makes him a target.

*sits back and watches this post get torn to pieces*

TL

I'd really like to know how Christians justify going to war. I think that very few "Christians" actually do what Jesus asked them to do. They come up with many rationalizations to sidestep his clear instructions. 80% of the US military is now evangelical Christians, as according to the Seattle Times recently. Maybe they should drop the pretense of being peaceful people and just say it out loud..."We hate all other religions and God wants us to smother them in their own blood".

At least according to you right-wingers, that is how Islam is, so why not just join them in your mutual hatred and be honest about what your religions stand for? Greed, domination and fear.

"Cheers" (what an awful way to end a post that is so mean, it sounds like sarcasm)
M

We did not attack them, they attacked us. I could care less what they do, I have no reason to kill them. Until they try to kill me. It has nothing to do about Christians and Muslims. IT's about Muslims and freedoms.

Moggy,
My understanding of Christianity includes helping others who are oppressed, assisting the needy, seeking truth, and doing what is right. These are all things that Jesus taught. His command to his followers is to bear witness to his gift of salvation and spread the Word of God to the outermost reaches of the earth. He told us there would be much suffering in His name. There is NO prohibition in the old or the new testament against just war. Jesus did not say we needed to be peaceful people, but that if we know him, we will know peace. And that is true. My religion does not stand for greed, domination and fear. We are told to give 10% of our earnings to our church as a tithe...plus, give more to those in need. We seek to bring freedom, both earthly, and eternal, to the oppressed (the vast majority of them happen to be Muslims unfortunately as noted earlier). Each human being is responsible for their own choice to believe and follow or to reject God. If someone is forced to follow a religion under threat of death, they are denied our greatest gift from God...free will. I don't necessarily want the Islamo-fascists to fear us...just to change their behavior. If fear is the only thing they will respond to, that is their choice. I am sure many of the innocent hostages who have been beheaded tried to reason, rationalize, and plead with their executioners. Have we seen any of them released yet? Apparently, talking is not very effective with these people. How many of those we capture have been beheaded so far? Nope...just a few embarrasing pictures. I am very sad you do not see the difference between the goals, practices, and beliefs of the Christian and Muslim cultures.
As BA says...it is about Muslims and freedom.
I am sorry you found my post to be "mean". It is hard to get across intonation in this print medium. If we were sitting across a couple of beers having this discussion, you would be able to see my expressions, body language, and hear the intonation of my voice. You would probably more easily understand that I am as passionate in my beliefs as you are in yours...but I really do try to understand others while doing my best to change any misperceptions they may have. I hope you can get over your hate and rage for the US military...none of the people I know (and many are evangelical Christians) want to smother anybody in their own blood...for God or anybody else. We just want to protect our country and the freedoms God has blessed us with here in America. Life is a journey and we are lucky enough to travel together for now...I hope you are enjoying the trip.
Cheers,
H.

I'm TRYING to enjoy the trip, Hwatta. Unfortunately, other humans don't seem to want me to enjoy it. Every day I read about some other atrocity, coming from all sides. It's hard to remain happy when so much of the world is so unhappy. This could be a really nice place, Earth, but we are bent on making it hell for everyone, it seems. If there were no guns, soldiers, religions or governments we could live happy lives, helping each other grow tasty food and then eating it.

I know it isn't that way and never will be. That is what makes me unhappy.

BigAmigo, you wanted controversy and fighting in the forums, you got it. However, at some point it just makes me ill to read all this stuff. I get enough bad opinions from the media, whoever the hell you think runs them. Coming to WOL is a refuge from all that bickering. I enjoy using my mind for tactical and strategic thinking and that is what this site is perfect for. I would be the last to stop the discussion here. Free speech, given to us by an Australian named Alex, is too precious.

America is spilt fairly evenly on most issues. We are getting more and more partisan and divided. Perhaps a common goal might help us heal up the wounds. This war is not a common goal in this country as of now. Neither is the political or economic system. I might suggest as a common goal the need to develop alternate energy sources or growing more and better food on more and better small organic farms. Whatever helps us be independent of other country's economic systems and resource monopolies.

So maybe this thread could focus on "what has happened to wol" as the theme, since that is the title. Wol has been castrated by simpering lovey-dovey wishy-washy flip-floppin' liberals, right? It's a war game, right? We don't need no stinkin' intellectuals tellin' us what to believe here! So, BA, I challenge you to a series of battles. How about 10 battles? We can alternate in choices of rooms, Demon or Medi, or any combination thereof. In other words, I might ask for Battle 6, you with Demons, me with Medi. It could be an autobattle. Whatever, I'll make you wish for peace, my friend. So what do you say? Pistols at ten paces?

www.mpogd.com
Vote for WOL

Mog,

We have always been a nation divided. I think that is our strength. We could be talking about Patriot or a Tory. You could be an abolishinist or pro slavery. A Christian or a Jew, protistant or Catholic. Black or white, Democrat or Republican.

It is what has made us what we are. It is what seperates us from other nations, it is what conflicts us within and around the world, it is what brings us together. Don't ignore our strength, or ability to somehow come out of each issue stronger, better, more advanced. If you take that away, we become placent. We have eventually done what is right, it may have taken a long road, a wrong turn now and then, but I believe in Thomas Jefferson and I believe in god too. Maybe that causes some issues with some people here at WOL.. Then good. I know I am being effective.

As far as your challenge, I'll be in touch.

(edited for spelling and grammer)

Last Edited : Saturday, 7 May 2005 - 23:27

Does this mean no more controversy? Oh dear, what am I going to do, I feel so idle already :p

Help the NEW FOLKS
and Vote for us at:
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TR

BigAmigo is exactly right. The fights make us stronger, not weaker. They prevent either side from going over the edge to extremism. There are young minds that need shaping on this website, don't give up! Fight to the last! Never surrender! That goes for you right wingers too (okay, maybe not )

Boe - "Does this mean no more controversy? "

Nope just means not only is he wrong, but I am going to beat his butt in Battle games too. LOL